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a pilgrim
Newbie Alert
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting how a thread can balloon with the serious questions of another. Hi Bridget. My name is tom, it didn’t seem to be added to my posting although in the review I think I saw it. But pilgrim is cool.
Bridget would like to compare Catholic beliefs with what Jesus taught, I am also interested in what Jesus taught and not so interested in what a particular church teaches. It does not matter what any man/woman says regarding God, all that matters is what God says. To start I choose:
Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
And:
Romans 3
4 ...let God be true, but every man a liar
If any man/woman desires to know God, they cannot rely upon the thoughts or teachings of men/women ( kind of awkward, I will now use the generic term of ‘ men ‘ rather than continuing to differentiate with men/women ) or organizations ( churches ) they must go directly to God Himself.
Jesus said that He is the Way, The Truth and the Life. He also said that it is the scriptures that tell of Him. I believe that it is there, in the scriptures where the answers to our questions are to be found.
If we remove the doctrines of individual churches, those disputable issues which divide, and rest upon the bible for a determination of truth, will we agree?
_________________
tom |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Bridget, “Hello!” and thank you for your interest and post!
I would be more than happy to demonstrate the reasons behind particular Church teachings that you may find difficult to understand, but in the interest of keeping this brief (and my limited time at the moment) – I will address a couple.
| Quote: | | “…why must a Catholic go into a closet and confess to a priest, when Jesus/Yeshua is the mediator between God and man. He can hear your confession directly from your own lips and present it before God. Unless of course your belief in Jesus/Yeshua isn't strong enough and you need a man to hear it.” |
I assume that you have a genuine curiosity about the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) – which is nice, because it was actually specifically brought up in my more recent post – thank you for staying on topic with that! 
To answer your question, (and I’ll try to keep this simple) this particular teaching comes directly from Jesus. Keep in mind that only God forgives sins. But, God (in the Person of Jesus Christ) entrusted certain individuals with His authority – specifically concerning the forgiveness of sins. I think a lot of people might miss the strength and power of the passage when Christ gives His apostles the power to forgive sins
| Quote: | | As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21-23.) |
The ONLY other time that this type of language is used, when God “breathes” on man – is when He breathed life into Adam! Now, we see Him doing the same, but in the context of entrusting His authority and power with his loyal disciples (what about “doubting Thomas” ) to forgive sins – LITERALLY!  I think this is a very moving passage – considering the usage of words and the nature of the event itself! In any case, (point one) Jesus clearly intended for specific people to be able to forgive sins – in His name.
Point two is also simple – though not as “magnificent” seeming! I mean, picturing Christ “breathing” on His disciples, who receive a special ministry and gift of the Holy Spirit… it’s pretty amazing to think about! What a tremendous gift! My second point is simply this… Jesus commanded us to confess our sins to one another!
| Quote: | | “Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.” |
Catholics are simply following Christ’s directions my friend! There is a wealth of information concerning the sacrament of reconciliation; I pray that the Holy Spirit touches your heart so that you may genuinely seek to understand this for yourself – it’s a wonderful gift, and learning more about it may be the key to you being able to take advantage of this gift from God!
As far as whether or not Catholics believe that God can hear our prayers – “YES! Always!” If we are truly contrite, of course He knows – of course He can forgive us! But, for Catholics, to avoid seeking forgiveness in the manner He specified – is defying His wishes for us. There are a lot of reasons for a Catholic to go to confession, but probably one of the most important is… that it is the method Christ ordained for us to SEEK His forgiveness. Of course we can pray directly to Him, and express our sorrow and ask for His forgiveness! BUT, He has already shown us how to seek His forgiveness… through the ministry He created.
| Quote: | Is the Catholic who confesses his sins to a priest any better off than the non-Catholic who confesses directly to God? Yes. First, he seeks forgiveness the way Christ intended. Second, by confessing to a priest, the Catholic learns a lesson in humility, which is avoided when one confesses only through private prayer. Third, the Catholic receives sacramental graces the non-Catholic doesn’t get; through the sacrament of penance sins are forgiven and graces are obtained. Fourth, the Catholic is assured that his sins are forgiven; he does not have to rely on a subjective "feeling." Lastly, the Catholic can also obtain sound advice on avoiding sin in the future.
During his lifetime Christ sent out his followers to do his work. Just before he left this world, he gave the apostles special authority, commissioning them to make God’s forgiveness present to all people, and the whole Christian world accepted this, until just a few centuries ago. If there is an "invention" here, it is not the sacrament of penance, but the notion that the sacramental forgiveness of sins is not to be found in the Bible or in early Christian history. http://www.catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp |
In any case, as far as the “closet” goes, I assume you are referring to confessionals? They resemble closets sometimes, or “booths.” I think these are effective when it comes to sensitive issues and cases of sin. If you were confessing a particular sin that was weighing you down with sorrow for having offended God – there can sometimes be an amount of shame involved. Now, the minister (the Priest or Bishop) you may KNOW on a personal level - your relationship (whether good or bad) may cloud the intentions, reasons, and willingness to confess. And when it comes to their (Priests) ministry as confessors… it might help sometimes for them to be able to separate themselves to make it easier for the penitent individual to make a good confession! This is not doctrine by any means – we do not HAVE to go into a confessional! It was a simple development to make the sacrament more approachable for many reasons. I hope my weak explanation of the confessional helped a little!
Your issues with Easter (and the season of Lent,) the Pope and Apostolic succession, and ecumenical councils (yes I am familiar with the Council of Nicea) – these are all good things to wonder about! I’d love to continue with some of these issues, so… you just let me know if you really want to know about them – and we will! Forgive me, but people often mask curiosity, willingness to learn and understand - with (sometimes hostile) direct confrontation with the intentions to accuse and mock. For a simple lay-Catholic Christian like myself – this can be hard to avoid sometimes! And it can be difficult to reason with anti-Catholics and their misunderstandings, because they are often not interested in sharing and learning about these fundamental truths of Christianity… they are sometimes only interested in accusing and proving the Catholic wrong! In any case, like I said – this is not an attempt to avoid your inquiries – only a simple request that we all exercise a little charity - and if you truly would like a response (from me) about these issues... please give me an opportunity to give them the attention they (and you) deserve! If I sound defensive and this bothers you - I humbly ask for your forgiveness. I'm not accusing you of anti-Catholic bigotry either! I just would prefer to answer questions presented in a different manner... I pray for your understanding. But, sincerely... please feel free to respond if you are genuinely interested!
Finally (I know… you’re probably thanking the Lord that I’m wrapping this up!) – your issues with the Trinity are also fair. But, Catholics do not separate God into three – this is a gross misunderstanding (though I can relate – trying to learn about and understand the nature of the “Trinity” can be difficult!) Your questions remind me of the heresy that the early Church had to deal with (the battle lasted for some time) called Arianism (not to be confused with Aryanism! ) Basically, Arianism was an anti-Trinity school of thought within the Church, this prompted the Church to further define the “Trinity” because the nature of Christ and indeed His Divinity were in question! And so the Trinity was further defined for all Christians (doctrine is rarely defined until it is challenged.) The followers of this early Heresy were no fools either – many were highly intelligent, highly knowledgeable of the Scriptures, and were (in fact) very skilful at USING the Scriptures to demonstrate their reasons to deny the Divinity of Jesus Christ. This is a very interesting topic to do some more research on (I think) – it can help people understand that this sort of heretical point of view is nothing new to the Church. Heresies, though disproven and defeated over time, often re-emerge… only slightly different. But a lie cannot stand forever! I just want to clarify that you (or anybody else) CAN be an honest and faithful Christian - truly trying to follow your (their) heart and the Holy Spirit’s direction… and a heretic – honest misunderstanding is not a sin! But, in truth – Catholics (and most Protestants) strongly affirm the doctrine of the Trinity. Even though it is not explicitly explained and cannot be demonstrated extraordinarily well by simply using the Holy Bible (try debating with a Unitarian Universalist “Christian” and you will see this!) – the Church HAS explicitly defined and defended this teaching. And so, the overwhelming majority of Christians believe and accept this doctrine - and for good reason too… it’s true!
I hope I provided you with some SOMEWHAT understandable explanations! 
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Tom, glad to see you back! Sorry, I would have addressed you by name.
| Quote: | | Bridget would like to compare Catholic beliefs with what Jesus taught, I am also interested in what Jesus taught and not so interested in what a particular church teaches. It does not matter what any man/woman says regarding God, all that matters is what God says. |
I understand this sentiment – I truly do. But, I disagree with the sentiment (not necessarily the words ) for many reasons though. I myself am always interested in what particular churches teach – because I believe that a good understanding of what issues divide Christians can help to understand how we can UNITE Christians! (Something I care for deeply… as it was the prayer of Christ ) However, understanding what individual Protestant churches and/or denominations/movements teach (and I try to devote a fair measure of my time to learning about the teachings of different Protestant traditions) is not the same thing as understanding what the Catholic Church teaches – but this is another issue, and would take a while to discuss! Let me know if you are interested in what I mean though!
| Quote: | | If we remove the doctrines of individual churches, those disputable issues which divide, and rest upon the bible for a determination of truth, will we agree? |
To answer your question… “No.” This has been very clearly shown by the constant splintering and divisions within Protestantism. You see… ‘truth’ is not subjective… and the Holy Spirit would not guide us into thousands of different “truths.” ‘Sola Scriptura’ - the Protestant doctrine that teaches (briefly defined) that the Holy Bible is the “pillar and foundation” of truth for all Christians - is a heresy. And as a ‘doctrine’… it did not exist before the 16th century. Yes, you may very well believe that if we “rest upon the bible for a determination of truth” that it will bring unity to Christianity – but this belief has played a SIGNIFICANT role in doing the exact opposite.
Also, truly… you are most welcome here with your questions! However, if you would like to discuss Bible doctrine… but don’t care to learn about or discuss what the Catholic Church teaches – why are you interested in this thread?
In any case… thank you for your comments and sharing your thoughts concerning those particular passages from Scripture!
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1136
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: reply |
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Hi Jason, I did write you a long post about water baptism, but got lost, when I submitted it. after, your responce to Bridgett, I will give you my interpretation of John 20: 21-23: In verse 21, we see Jesus again identified himself with His Father. He told the disciples by whose authority he did His workk. Then He passed the job to His disciples of sppreading the Gospel of salvation around the world.
In verse 22, most Bible scholars see this as when the disciples were saved, received the New Birth. A brand new spirit, and the old unregenerative spirit was removed. The Holy Spirit lives in us. So, he can't live in a sinful heart or spirit. This was a foretaste of what all believers would experience from the time of Pentacost (Acts 2) and forever after. To do God's work, we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We must avoid trying to do his work in our own strength. There is life in the breath of God. Man was created but did not come alive until God breathed into him the breath of life (Genesis 2:7). God's first breath made mann different from all other forms of creation. Now, through the breath of Jesus, God imparted eternal, spiritual life. With this imnbreathing came the power to do God's will on earth.
In verse 23, Jesus was giving the disciples their Spirit-powered and Spirit-guided mission, to preach the Good News about Jesus so People's sins might be forgiven. The disciples did not have the power to forgive sins (only God can forgive sins), but Jjesuus gave them the priveledge of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus' message. All believers have this same priveledge. We can announce the forgiveness of sin with certainty when we ourselves find repentance and faith. To me to believe the Catholic Way is ridiculous because, do you think for one minute the disciples took time to hear sins. They gave a message that forgiveness is available by the finished work of the cross. We as men, can accept or reject this message. If one rejects, then their sins are not forgiven.
By the way, I do love Catholics, but don't agree with their thelology. I will pray for you my friend.
May God bless, golfjack |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Jason wrote: | Is the Catholic who confesses his sins to a priest any better off than the non-Catholic who confesses directly to God? Yes. First, he seeks forgiveness the way Christ intended. Second, by confessing to a priest, the Catholic learns a lesson in humility, which is avoided when one confesses only through private prayer. Third, the Catholic receives sacramental graces the non-Catholic doesn’t get; through the sacrament of penance sins are forgiven and graces are obtained. Fourth, the Catholic is assured that his sins are forgiven; he does not have to rely on a subjective "feeling." Lastly, the Catholic can also obtain sound advice on avoiding sin in the future.
During his lifetime Christ sent out his followers to do his work. Just before he left this world, he gave the apostles special authority, commissioning them to make God’s forgiveness present to all people, and the whole Christian world accepted this, until just a few centuries ago. If there is an "invention" here, it is not the sacrament of penance, but the notion that the sacramental forgiveness of sins is not to be found in the Bible or in early Christian history. http://www.catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp |
Hi Jason! I hope you don't mind me coming into the conversation. I had a question though on the above quote. First of all, I have never been a Catholic but have heard others' experiences that have caused them to leave the Catholic church so basically all I know are rumors & such. So I would not be qualified to say if what the Catholic church teaches is sound or not, but from you describing things in this thread, it has been very refreshing to hear these truths from you. Good job for trying to clarify the church's doctrines.
Now, my question & a statement of sorts -- the above quote bothered me a bit b/c it seems as if what you're saying is that *I* being a non-Catholic, am not as "forgiven" as a Catholic is. Sorry if I mis-interpreted it, but that's how it came across to me. I know this is probably not as how you intended it, but that's how it came across. We are all forgiven, not any one person "more" than another.
You also mention humility. That this avoided when in private prayer. I find this simply untrue. God has humbled me so many times I can't even count. Don't you believe this is found in a direct communication from God? It is the Holy Spirit that convicts us of that sin & humbles us. I know He can work through others, I don't deny that, but I don't think He meant that you MUST go through a priest in order to be forgiven. Jesus is & always will be the mediator between God & ourselves. Yes, He has chosen others to work through, but I don't believe this is a REQUIREMENT. I hope my point came across okay.
As far as subjective "feelings" -- I don't think I am doing that. Relying on a subjective "feeling" when confessing my sins. Yes, I can feel the Holy Spirit descend down on me after my confession & I receive the grace you mentioned. To have someone repeat that "my sins are forgiven" & to "go in peace" may make others "feel better". Kind of a phew, I'm forgiven type of feeling makes me think that Catholics are getting this subjective "feeling", not non-Catholics. Do you see what I'm saying here?
Please don't think I'm attacking Catholic beliefs or anything, these are just a few questions that I raised after reading this thread. I am learning a lot so please accept this post as one of sincerity.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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Bridget
Rattlesnake
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 443
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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No, it is not curiosity that caused me to ask the questions, it is a fact that the Catholic or Universal Church is a fake and a fraud. This is not said with malice or hate it is said in truth.
I have studied the lst century church out of curiosity in the beginning, but then I realized that as a Methodist I was sitting in a church thinking I was honoring Yeshua but in reality there was nothing that resembled Yeshua being said or sung or spoken in the church I had attended for years. I taught Sunday school there, I sang in the choir and I was very much a part of this so called church.
I have studied the history of Christianity and have found this man-made religion is nothing but a combination Paganism and Philosophy, which throws in a few teachings of Yeshua. It makes me angry that people have followed this faith without ever checking out it's history. Of course the history you learn from the Catholic church is much different from the true history.
Yeshua is not a mysterious, magical person, He was born, He lived a Jewish life, He loved His mother, and His siblings, two of which wrote books in the NT.
As far as I'm concerned Yeshua was beaten, walked through the streets of Jerusalem as a common criminal, and nailed to a cross. He was innocent, He did not deserve to die such a horrible death, but He did it out of love, for the Father and for His Jewish ancestors and for all of us.
I guess I figured I owed Him something, the least I could do was what He asked, LEARN of ME. Learn of Him, the real Yeshua, not some mystery but a real loving caring person. That's the least you can do for HIM. |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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I would rather have something good to say about the catholic church, like the fact that I attended several services where I experienced inspirational motivation that led to a prayerful breakthrough, and that when I asked the clergy questions about catholic faith, after services of course, hours after usually, I eventually received a thoroughly satisfying response that bolstered by trust in God and Christ, or that when I was struggling with carnal temptations involving sinful indulgence in lust, robbery, other illegal activities, substance abuse and voiced my concern to local clergy and their superiors, I never went home feeling like there was no mediator between my self and God ... but I can't!
I would rather say that I experience an occasional event like I just described but again, I cannot, because I would be sharing a falsehood.
The only positive experience that I had after twenty years of family attendance in the catholic church was when I read the bible for my self, prayed to God for my self, and ran into a pentecostal evangalistic preacher who invited me to attend ongoing group bible study, and that led to my repentance, my baptism into Christ and Christ becoming my spiritual leader ... but hey ... that's just me.
The catholic church does have nice pews, colorful windows, timely services and plenty of opportunities to give.
thunder
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Submit to God in Christ |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
I believe that one of the greatest gifts God has given to mankind is one of forgiveness.
We come to the Lord in our prayers when we feel a need to share a burden within ourselves. And the Lord walks with us and accepts our confession that we have done wrong against someone else or even ourselves. Many times we get angry and lash out at another or within, and these are thing that eat us up and make us ashamed of ourselves.
Jesus says, If you confess to me your unrighteousness and you are truly sorry for causing others or even yourself harm, I will forgive you. I will remove the burden and throw it far from you.
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.
With this great Love of our Savior that he sheds on us, comes many gifts. And one of the most wonderful gifts to share with others is one of forgiveness. To share the burden of your fellowman, the same way Christ shares our burdens.
We are given the gift to forgive ane another.
I had a misunderstanding with someone a while ago, and it had been troubling me for a very long time. I wanted to apologize and say something that would make it all go away. I couldn't reach that person until recently.
I was able to explain my feelings and to share the burden of being guilty for making the friendship go seperate ways. I felt I had done or said something unrepairable. Ripped my heart out and caused a lot of distress.
My friend told me that it wasn't anything I had done or said, it was just a time to move on. And that they never intended any hurt feelings and that they were sorry that we lost touch too.
Forgiveness....Oh the Lord is so good!
I felt that burden slide right on down out of my reach. It was gone and the feeling that that forgiveness washed over me was inexplicable.
I know that the Lord works in each one of us. Giving us wonderful gifts to share with each other every day. And this one alone is so big and so powerful, that to say that only a few are able to distribute this free gift we have been given to share, is like saying only some can eat out of the candy jar.
I believe we all share in this incredible power of loving and forgiving one another. And that this gift comes from the Lord himself and is shed in the hearts of those who Love Him and Seek Him, and Learn of Him and His wonderful ways.
I am not the creator of forgiveness, I have been given an opportunity to be a distributor for Him.
Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
The gift is unlimited!!
1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
Amen!!
Lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
Jack – again… good to see you! I’ve heard similar interpretations of these passages before (from John 20.) Thank you for your thoughts and ideas, they are interesting!
I always thought it was surprising that Jesus’ words (that seem rather direct here) are taken non-literally! Jesus said, “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (NIV)
Then I hear people try to respond with… “No, no, no… Jesus didn’t actually mean that his human disciples could literally forgive sins! That’s ‘ridiculous!’” Seems rather strange to me! But, what can I say!? There certainly are a lot of different opinions... and... I guess... diversity can be good sometimes, right!?
I hope you would allow that the Church AT LEAST has a valid scriptural point here concerning the forgiveness of sins. Maybe you don’t agree, but I really hope that you might consider no longer claiming it to be as “un-biblical” as you have in the past. That's up to you of course!
Also, you mention “most Bible scholars” as though you were sure – but, I have some reservations regarding this assertion my friend. Take a large (as in ‘most’) sample, or even a small sample (if you prefer) of Protestant Bible scholars… and I believe we would see that not all would agree with the basics of the interpretation you’ve provided. But of the ones that DID agree with you concerning these passages - how much of their interpretations and theology concerning and built upon OTHER passages would YOU agree with? Most? Some? None?
I could provide (historical and contemporary) evidence to refute your claim that most Bible scholars share your interpretation – but, I honestly don’t think the numbers game has a whole lot of bearing. In any case - I disagree with what you're implying here - I don't think there is any room for this claim to be literally accurate at all Jack. But, please feel free to correct me if I make claims you honestly feel to be inaccurate – I’m sure that I too have made many simple mistakes in honesty… and probably have a lot more to make! I'll try not to be so picky!
An important closing point (I think) that I'd like to make in this reply here is this: you may disagree with the Church’s interpretation of these particular passages… and some of her theology. You have that choice! And so do I.
And I appreciate that you “love Catholics” Jack! I love you too my brother!  Thank you for your prayers, you remain in mine.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
Hello Evee! (I dig your name ) Of course you are welcome in this conversation! I am new here myself (I have posted only a fraction compared to you and many others!) and though I’ve never read anything you’ve written yet – just from this one post… I really would like to say that I more than appreciate you presence here. Truly… my compliments.
I think I understand the point of your question. Some of the implications you drew from the quote I used are very understandable – and I can relate to your being “bothered” by what it seemed to say.
I think the point is… that we should seek God with all our might. Many people do… and find themselves dedicated and honestly worshipping Him as best they can in different ways. And many of these expressions, traditions, or systems may contain much truth and can provide answers to various questions. But, I think that you and I (and many others that post here) have come to believe that there is no religion that can possibly bring us closer to God than Christianity. But, as there are differing fundamental beliefs about God outside Christianity… there are possibly just as many within (unfortunately.)
Now… I’ll try to make my point!
I think the best answer I can give is to try to explain culpability – and how we become more and more responsible as we grow in our faiths and in life in general! Have you heard a fundamentalist say that anyone who hears the Gospel and doesn’t convert to Christianity is condemned to hell? I have. I had a friend that I was deployed with in the war – he was constantly eager to witness to Muslims (an admirable desire to be sure!) But, his tone and temperament could be openly hostile and often threatening in a way. I tried to share with him that “you’re not going to gain a lot of favor with a devote follower of Islam by opening up with ‘your religion is evil and your Prophet was a liar… now let me show you why!’” We often spoke about this, and when he would confide his frustration at the lack of progress he seemed to be making – I would say that same comment about his approach - and then suggest that he pray for God to show him a way to relate to these devout followers of Mohammed, so that they might not turn from the truth because of the lack of charity through which it was communicated. My suggestions seemed to fall on dear ears for the most part. I mean… I know he heard me… and I believe that in his heart he agreed, but I’m sad to say (more than you know) that I never got the chance to see him put this into action.  In any case, he often comforted himself (I think he felt very guilty for having “failed” to share the Gospel) by condemning them… saying something along the lines of “Well, I’ve told them the truth about God… if they reject it, they’re going to hell. All I can do now is pray for them to wake up.” He had put the ball in their court by his witnessing, so now their fates were in their own hands... to accept Christ or not. I know he gained comfort from this – so I never tried to disagree with him. The point is… if you were an Arab and a devout Muslim, who’d heard a MUCH different story about Christ (and Christians) than the ones most people on this board heard growing up… and you are presented with these “new” ideas about Jesus and Christianity for the first time – by someone attacking and belittling your faith (and maybe even you personally)… would you honestly be open to hearing what they were saying? What if they were presenting you with Christ… at sword-point… or gun-point? Would you grasp the truth and fundamental ideas of Christianity then? (Please understand I am only using these extreme examples to help illustrate my point.)
Only God can read our hearts – I know we agree on this Evee. So, I guess what I’m trying to say is that individual relationships with God are hard… if not impossible to judge! But, I do believe that if we are given a fair opportunity to hear the truth… we are drawn to it. If we do not feel the pull – there can be infinite reasons why: cultural reasons, pride, misunderstanding, poor communication… you name it! But, our guilt or our culpability might be very different. If I am told from an unreliable source that the speed limit in my neighborhood is 30MPH – I might doubt or completely disbelieve it. But, when we’re talking about the “law” – it wouldn’t matter. I couldn’t say, “Sorry officer. Yeah, I heard someone say it was 30, but I didn’t believe them.” Or “I read the sign… but WHO KNOWS who put it up there! It could have been anybody!” We’d still be guilty of breaking the law, regardless if we honestly doubted it or not. But, God isn’t bound even by His own guidance, being guilty of sin in His eyes isn't the same thing as being guilty of violating a traffic regulation – and He alone will be our judge (as we both are aware I’m sure! )
In any case, now that you’ve heard what the Church teaches regarding how we should seek His forgiveness… are you bound by it? I cannot answer that question – it depends on many things. I truly hope that you "feel the pull" and desire to know more about all the sacraments! But, if you have always confessed your sin with sincerity – who can fault you? Certainly not me! Self-evaluation can be very difficult for anyone (especially for me!) and I greatly admire people who practice it and employ it well! I am not as good at this as most, for sure... but, I am trying.
Throughout your life, you may very well have done what God wished of you, using all the tools available to you… and pleased Him. “A contrite heart is a noble thing indeed.” Are you “less forgiven” than a Catholic who does the same thing on the inside, but expresses it differently on the outside? Hmmm... that would depend a lot on your individual understanding I think, but I'm no expert! And a Catholic, with imperfect contrition (and doesn't REALLY believe they did anything wrong, though they've been told otherwise) who confesses to a Priest... are they "less forgiven" because of how they felt? I personally believe that forgiveness from God is available to anyone who truly seeks it with all their heart – but the application of that statement in itself can mean many things!
And I do see what you’re saying about “subjective feelings.” But consider this… if you were present for (or watching through a window or something) the scene towards the end in John 20, and you SAW Jesus breathe upon His chosen few… and you HEARD Jesus say to them “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained,” and 10 minutes later, you confessed a sin you’d committed to one of the disciples He’d just blessed… and that person laid their hand on your head (or arm, or hand, or whatever) and said, "God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son, has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." Would you take comfort in it then? Would you take comfort in it if you did it one year later? Ten years later? Or would it be just “subjective feeling” and possible lingering doubt in the back of your mind? I guess it depends on how much you believe!
In any case… I think I have (again) gone on for far too long and somehow shared far too little of anything with real value! Though I hope not.
Thank you so very much for your time and for sharing your thoughts Evee… and please forgive me for any offense. I will pray for you my sister! Right now in fact!
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
Bridget, thank you for sharing your thoughts and your experience!
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:38 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Thunder, I know a very similar story to yours… intimately. A person (who I am very close with) also left the Catholic Church to seek Him in the Pentecostal (jumped around a bit within different Assemblies of God churches) movement and tradition.
You never had a positive experience in twenty years of attending Mass!? How unfortunate. Truly... I am saddened to hear this – though I feel like I can relate. Please… I hope you might allow me an opportunity to remind you of what you once participated in, to give you a glimpse. I’ve heard this claim (or something similar) many times before… “I was a Catholic for half my life… and I never REALLY heard the Gospel.” And though you may remember that there were readings from the Old and New Testaments in EVERY Mass (the exact same readings in every Catholic Church in the entire world) and maybe you remember singing a Psalm in between… how much more is there than that? I can tell you this… there is a LOT more my friend! The Mass is SOAKED with the Gospel! The Orthodox don’t call this ancient service the “Divine Liturgy” for nothing!
| Quote: | | Every Mass begins the same way. We make the Sign of the Cross and say, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” |
We can discuss WHY we do that later – if you’re interested.
| Quote: | For now, just note that the Sign of the Cross started with the Apostles, who "sealed" the newly baptized by tracing this sign on their foreheads (see Ephesians 1:13; Revelation 7:3).
The words we pray as we make this sign come straight from the lips of Jesus. Indeed, they're among the last words He spoke to His Apostles (see Matthew 28:19).
Next in the Mass, the priest greets us. Again he speaks, and we respond, with words from the Bible. We say: "The Lord be with you" (see 2 Timothy 4:22).
In Scripture these words are a pledge of divine presence, protection and help (see Exodus 3:12; Luke 1:28). The priest might opt to use a different greeting, such as "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ . . ." but that greeting too will be drawn from Scripture (see 2 Corinthians 13:14; Ephesians 1:2).
The Mass continues this way - as a "dialogue" between the faithful and God… What's striking - and it's something we rarely recognize - is that we carry on this conversation almost entirely in the language of the Bible.
When we beg "Lord, have mercy" - our cry for help and forgiveness is one that runs throughout Scripture (see Psalm 51:1; Baruch 3:2; Luke 18:13,38,39).
When we glorify God, we use the song the angels sang that first Christmas night (see Luke 2:14).
Even the Creed and the Eucharistic prayers are composed of biblical words and phrases.
As we prepare to kneel before the altar, we sing another angelic hymn from the Bible - "Holy, holy, holy . . . " (see Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8). We join that to the triumphant Psalm sung by those who welcomed Jesus to Jerusalem: "Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes . . . " (see Mark 11:9-10)
At the heart of the Mass, we hear Jesus' words from the Last Supper (see Mark 14:22-24).
Then we pray to our Father in the words our Savior gave us (see Matthew 6:9-13). We acknowledge Him with a line from John the Baptist: "Behold, the Lamb of God . . ." (see John 1:29,36).
And before receiving Him in communion, we confess our unworthiness - in words once used by a Roman soldier seeking Jesus' help (see Luke 7:7).
What we say and hear in the Mass comes to us from the Bible. And what we "do" in the Mass, we do because it was done in the Bible.
We kneel (see Psalm 95:6; Acts 21:5) and sing hymns (see 2 Maccabees 10:7,38; Acts 16:25); we offer each other a sign of peace (see 1 Samuel 25:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:26).
We gather around an altar (see Genesis 12:7; Exodus 24:4; 2 Samuel 24:25; Revelation 16:7), with incense (see Jeremiah 41:5; Revelation 4:8), served by priests (see Exodus 28:3-4; Revelation 20:6). We offer thanks with bread and wine (see Genesis 14:18; Matthew 26:26-28).
From the first Sign of the Cross to the last "Amen" (see Nehemiah 8:6; 2 Corinthians 1:20), the Mass is an aural and sensual tapestry woven with words and actions, even accessories drawn from the Bible.
We address God in words that He himself has given us through the inspired writers of sacred Scripture. And He in turn comes to us - instructing, exhorting and sanctifying us - again through the living Word of the inspired Scriptures. |
I’m sure this all sounds familiar to you – but even this brief (VERY brief – there is a great deal more to illustrate the Biblical basis and true beauty of all the details in the Mass) outline doesn’t come close to telling the whole story. But, I can relate to how you feel… sitting through the Mass, not feeling like you are participating, feeling like you’re missing something, and feeling like you wouldn’t mind being somewhere else! I certainly used to feel that way! But, then… I WAS missing something!   And what I was missing… what was right there in front of me the whole time.  It was the Gospel – being acted out and coming to life before me! And it is an extraordinary gift to know that we are worshipping Him here on earth - as they do in Heaven.
As far as diminishing the Mass or the Church to a building with “nice pews, colorful windows, timely services and plenty of opportunities to give” goes… I am sorry you seem to feel these things ‘represent’ the Church. Not all Catholic Churches are beautifully decorated or as well organized as they might be… there are many poor parish Churches in different countries throughout the world that can only afford the simplest structures (I’ve been to a couple) and do not have the benefit of “timely services” for many reasons (some are very sad.) But, the beauty of any Catholic church is a reflection of the love that the members have and had for their church building. When I see beautiful churches, I try to remind myself of the sacrifices people made (sometimes very significant) to glorify God and build a place of worship they could be proud of – not of how gaudy or unnecessary it all seems. But, I guess that’s just a matter of how you look at things isn’t it!? In any case… the ornate decorations or beautiful art that might displease individual people – in all likeliness came from the sincere desire of committed Christians to glorify Jesus Christ.
If I seem a little defensive here… I am sorry! I apologize if you meant some of your comments as compliments, but I got the impression that you were not intending to be complimentary.
In any case, I will pray for your return to the Church – but only if you truly feel the Holy Spirit move you to do so!
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Lone, what a nice post! Thank you for sharing that personal anecdote, it brought home your message well I think.
| Quote: | | I believe that one of the greatest gifts God has given to mankind is one of forgiveness. |
A big “AMEN” to that! What a concept… forgiveness. I think it was Alexander Pope who said “To err is human - to forgive, divine.” How true. Which probably makes our attempts to truly forgive others difficult or imperfect at best! I’ve thought for some time now that those words are a wonderful and powerful statement to reflect and meditate on.
I agree with you that we are to “forgive those who trespass against us” with all my heart my friend! But, this does not diminish the fact that Christ established a Church and gave specific individuals His authority to forgive sins. Not simply offenses people have committed against each other – but offenses that have damaged their relationship with God (isn’t that what sin truly is in a way?)
So, yes… I agree that we should always offer forgiveness “seventy times seven times”!!! - when a person seeks forgiveness for hurting us. And if I offend or hurt another, I will seek forgiveness with true contrition. But, also with a contrite heart… I seek forgiveness from God, for my sins… in the manner that He chose for me.
Thank you for your post! May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Jason you wrote:
I agree with you that we are to “forgive those who trespass against us” with all my heart my friend! But, this does not diminish the fact that Christ established a Church and gave specific individuals His authority to forgive sins. Not simply offenses people have committed against each other – but offenses that have damaged their relationship with God (isn’t that what sin truly is in a way?)
I want to chew on the specific individuals with you if I may.
Mar 13:34 [For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Now who are the servants?
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
What is his house?
Hebrews - Chapter 3
Hbr 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Hbr 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house.
Hbr 3:3 For this [man] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Hbr 3:4 For every house is builded by some [man]; but he that built all things [is] God.
Hbr 3:5 And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Hbr 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Jason,
I believe that we are all servants of Christ, if you follow him and believe and have faith. We all become the children of God, through the Holy Spirit which is given to us.
That we the servants of Christ are his spritual house being built up. That we are to look to Christ for guidence and for truth, as our High Priest and Lord over these parts of the house that are being built together.
Who is the porter?
The children of God, which child you are, if you have given your life for Christ and accepted the Holy Spirit to come and live with you in your temple/body/house:
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?,
are those that are led and follow after the teachings of truth by the Holy Spirit within them.
How could the following apply to me, if it were only for certain individuals?
Ephesians - Chapter 1
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
I believe that the church is a work in progress. That the establishment of that church, is God's Spirit dwelling in the life and body of every believer.
I'm not arguing with you Jason. I'm just sharing with you my understanding of it.
Some men are leaders, some men are followers. Some men need other men to show them the way. Other's put their own lives behind them and follow the leading of The Spirit.
Everyone has a path they must follow.
And in the end all paths lead to God anyhow. Amen?
God Bless You Jason
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Jason,
I would like to thank you for receiving my post as it was intended. PTL! I don't have a lot of time right now to respond, but I just wanted to point some things out:
I agree w/you that only God knows what's in our hearts. Only He knows who is sincerely coming to Him for forgiveness & has the Holy Spirit running through them.
| Quote: | | Have you heard a fundamentalist say that anyone who hears the Gospel and doesn’t convert to Christianity is condemned to hell? |
Yes, I've had it done to me & yes, I've been guilty of that myself. I am not a fundamentalist. I believe there's so much more to God than just what's written on the pages. Some of the Bible I believe is to be taken literally while others seem like a metaphor for something else. The Hebrews were so gifted in writing in poetry & colorful language. I've been learning a good deal about Hebrew in the Bible study I'm in. We've been going through the OT one chapter at a time, in order to find out what it truly is God has to say to us & digging deeper. We've been learning what the times were like back then so we can put the passages in context, when the passages were written so we know what the Israelites were experiencing back then, that type of thing. It has really helped me gain a better understanding of the need for Jesus' arrival. I can't wait to dig further! I truly loved Mother Theresa's words (I think it was Mother Theresa) that said, "Spread the gospel of Jesus & when you can use words." That really hit home for me. I was giving service to Jesus through my lips, but not truly doing what Jesus asked me to do. So I can relate to that above quote very well. Thanks for sharing it!
| Quote: | | individual relationships with God are hard… if not impossible to judge |
This is so true. I can name many people who go to confession, confess their sins, get that "I'm forgiven" feeling & then go right out & do the same things again. The cycle is never-ending. You're so right that is a change of the HEART that matters. I'm glad to see you agree that we will be forgiven depending on our heart change. I think that is vital to any Christian seeking forgiveness, whether through a priest or otherwise.
| Quote: | | And I do see what you’re saying about “subjective feelings.” But consider this… if you were present for (or watching through a window or something) the scene towards the end in John 20, and you SAW Jesus breathe upon His chosen few… and you HEARD Jesus say to them “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained,” and 10 minutes later, you confessed a sin you’d committed to one of the disciples He’d just blessed… and that person laid their hand on your head (or arm, or hand, or whatever) and said, "God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son, has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." Would you take comfort in it then? Would you take comfort in it if you did it one year later? Ten years later? Or would it be just “subjective feeling” and possible lingering doubt in the back of your mind? I guess it depends on how much you believe! |
If I was there? Yep, I sure would!!! Is it the same today? Well, let's look at the services of a non-Catholic, my church for example. We have confession time during our service. We all say our confession at the same time. We include a list of sins so that each of us is convicted w/whatever sin is on that list that we need to repent from. At the end of that confession, there is a silent time for us to reflect & then the pastor announces, forgive me for not having the exact words, but I know at the end, she says, "In Jesus Christ, we are forgiven. Praise the Lord!" And we respond with, "The Lord's name be praised!" That is pretty powerful for the contrite heart sitting there in the pew. We do get that confirmation. It's almost like the Lord has touched me personally on the shoulder & said, "Your sins are forgiven you." That is so powerful for me, I walk away trying to do a little better each time. THe Holy Spirit was in that room! I could feel it!
I also agree w/you about giving power to the apostles to forgive sins. After all, Jesus said it & He always meant what He said. But I also think that pastors have this same power, not just priests. As in my example, it is just done in a different way. But, I also think that it isn't a requirement. It is an ability. Do you see the difference? Although the apostles had the power to forgive sins, did they do it for everyone they came in contact with or did a lot of people go to Jesus on their own & confess their sins after they were saved? I would bet they did. You see what I mean?
Well, I do have to go b/c I have to attend a dress rehearsal for our Sunday School Christmas program that's being held tomorrow, but I did want to start w/this & then I can respond to some things you had to say to others, if you don't mind. Have blessed day Jason & to anyone else that has taken an interest in this thread. God loves every single one of you!!! PTL!!!
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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