The Politics of Jesus

Nobby · Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:13 pm Post subject: The Politics of Jesus

_______________The Politics of Jesus

This is a One-on- One debate between SarahJane & golfjack.
Have fun! Very Happy

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

I'll use my first post in this debate to say that I do not believe Jesus would endorse any political party. This debate is for entertainment and learning only. We both know that neither of us will change our politics because of a debate.

It is my belief, based on the Gospels that Jesus was much more liberal than conservative in His teachings.

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."

32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

That leaves us with the question: Exactly what is Biblical love?

1 Corinthians 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

And just one more to start:

Matthew 5:

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

My personal belief is that Jesus was not interested in making earthly governments into heavenly entities. Our job as Christians is to help others find their way to the love of Christ. We were all granted free will and creating laws that destroy free will does not bring others closer to the love of Christ. They might do the 'morally correct' thing but they aren't doing it for God. Laws that make moral decisions legislation serve to drive others away from the love of Christ.

Our particular political affiliation isn't important as long as we recognize that it's a political affiliation and should not ever be confused with forcing the will of God on others. The Bible is suppose to be our tool for browbeating ourselves. Browbeating nonbelievers not only doesn't work it separates them from the love of God.

*edited to include:

If we are going to endorse politics as a side-note to religion then we should at least get as close to the teachings of Jesus as we can.

golfjack · Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:12 pm Post subject: reply

First of all, I believe we have to define love. I think there are 4 kinds of love mentioned in the Bible, which I would have to refer to my notes. One kind of Love is called Gorious Love (feeling love), which is what we do when we fall in love. But the most important love is agape love, which is the God kind of love mentioned in 1 Cor.13, the love chapter. for example, I am in love with my wife, but also chose her to love, just like God chose to love us, and He didn't have to. The God Kind of Love will never fail. Therefore our love for others cannot be based on feeling love. If our Churches tell people that it is OK to fornicate, do homosexual acts, do what they feel is right is doing these people a dis-service. We all go through various trials and tests, which are for our spiritual growth. David, Job, the Jews were tested by how they loved God. But God always showed mercy on them, especially the Jews. The Bible says in Genisis that God will bless those who bless Israel, and curse those who don't. I can tell you that some churches are not blessing Israel, which are called today liberal churches. I guess I can name them here and hope this don't offend you. Lutheran, Prespyterian, Episcopal, Catholic, United Church of Christ, Church of Christ, disciples of Christ, new age balony, and some I don't even know. Now, some I have mentioned are not all this way, but for the most part are governed this way.

I am an evangelistic preacher. What is wrong with me preaching out against homosexuality, abortion, adultry, fornication, and many other ungodly things. are we not suppose to preach the truth in boldness with love, and if I really love, I must tell unbelievers, and believers the truth. Otherwise, it just isn't love. One must ask themselves the question, if I obtain an abortion is that really love or selfishness. If someone goes to hell, and I don't preach the true Gospel to them, did I do a good job? No. Yes, we all have free will, and we don't have to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. Yes, people don't have to listen, and if they don't, I will just dust my feet off and go on.

As far as politicians go, They still have to make God first in their lives above all. They can legislate law. A judge must interpret law, and not make law. For example, Roe Vs Wade is bad law, and some day will be overturned, either by ammendment or states rights. Yes, there are some who go way overboard, like Pat Robertson, and sometimes jerry Falwell. There is nothing wrong with me promoting Consevative thinking, as long as I don't tell the flock how to vote.

Jesus Christ was never wishy washy, and we shoudn't be either. I will defend what Jesus did on the cross for the rest of my life. I will do my best to bring America closer to God.

Well, that's a start anyway.

May God bless, golfjack

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

Let's look at the way Jesus loved the sinner:

John 8
1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11 "No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

By showing her the love explained in the Bible he brought her closer to a life without sin, which brought her closer to the love of God. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I am a liberal and I would like to explain something to you. I don't say that homosexuality is not a sin in the Bible, I don't say that abortion is right, or good. I don't delight in sin at all. I do my best to love the person and by doing that they want what I have.

The Bible tells us not to judge. It gives us a warning along with it:

Matthew 7:

1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

When we cannot forgive we cannot be forgiven. That isn't the same thing as saying that if I am judgmental on homosexuality I'll be judged on my homosexual behaviors. That means if I cannot look past the sin and reach the sinner the same measure will be used on me. Our harsh judgments do a lot to push others away from the love of Christ and our goal needs to be bringing them closer to that.

I have been working on recapturing faith. Over the course of a decade I have been through a type of hell that has caused me to be separated from feeling the love of God. I prayed for understanding all of those years ago and I received an understanding that has strengthened my faith beyond measure. I faced all of the things that my harsh mouth proclaimed towards others. All of those things that the Bible tells us to do: Feeding the hungry, loving the sinner, speaking the truth without judgment, gently caring for those who are emotionally suffering bring others closer to the love of Christ. Any time we try to wing it we push others away. When we use force and anger we are not bringing others closer to the love of Christ. We *might* strike fear in their hearts but that is not loving God. Without love we are nothing and our offerings worthless.

We all sin and we are all in need of forgiveness. When we judge we will be judged harshly. When we love the way the Bible teaches us we will be loved in turn.

I do not support sin at all, and even in my moments of great doubt I still did the things that I knew were right from wrong. I wish that I could be brave enough to tell the whole story but I'm not. What I've learned is that when we are kind, patient, gentle and not judgmental we can inspire others to want the love of Jesus. When we use force or when we are abrasive we push them farther from learning the lessons of the Bible and receiving the love of God.

The gentle strength of Jesus is our example. Jesus told us not to resist an evil person, when they strike out against us we are to offer them more of ourselves to hurt. His greatest example was during the Crucifixion when he prayed: Father forgive them, they know not what they do. He was in an enormous amount of pain yet he didn't resist, he didn't lash out in anger, he asked for forgiveness for them. He loved them.

What I have learned in my life is that when we fight against an enemy the enemy grows in strength and fights us all the harder. We feed the type of strength they rely on to do what they are doing and nothing can be gained from it, even if we win the battle. When we do not resist, but also do not succumb we not only help to diffuse them but we also teach them the strength of the type of love found in the Bible.

We are not only called to love we are called to love perfectly. That can be disturbing because we know that as humans we will mess up. My understanding of loving perfectly isn't that we must always be perfect but that the type of love that 'works' is perfect and what we saw in the example of Jesus. When we are facing sin we offer the perfect type of love. It isn't so much that we aren't allowed to make mistakes, unless the mistake we make is in offering something that isn't the perfect type of love outlined in the Bible.

We should not be a stumbling block for others, we should be working hard to remove obstacles that are in their way so they can find the love of God. Our job is huge, but it is made easier for ourselves and others when we do it the way the Bible tells us to, which is through perfect love.

By accepting others as they are we will be acceptable to Christ. By showing them kindness and exchanging love for their sin we are bringing ourselves and them closer to God. When we use force we are resisting them and they grow in the type of strength they rely on in order to commit their acts of sin.

Since love is our calling it should be what we strive to teach. We will never teach love with anger or harsh judgments.

golfjack · Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: reply

sent you a long post, but lost it. In short, I can agree with you about the Church has no need to be involved in politics, whether liberal or conservative.

May God bless, golfjack

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

May God bless us both, Jack. Thank you for participating in this debate with me.

golfjack · Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:40 am Post subject: reply

May God bless you too SarahJane. I pereceive you as a very loving person, who understands God's love. The Bible says that faith worketh by love. I did write you a long post, and really did lose it. I guess I got knocked off line. I am an evangelist, and always preach to sinners with love. I am opposed to preachers who preach hate. I am opposed to picketting an abortion clinic. or gay group. I don't believe Christians should particapate in anti-war activities or such things. It makes look like fools. As far as sinners go, they do have choice either to accept God's forgiveness or not. If they reject, they will have to face the wrath of God. I try my best to get the message out and would never preach down on them. In fact, I will not put any believer under any kind of performance.

Having said that, some preachers on TV, and even Pentacostals are doing a dis-service for the Body of Christ with their hate mongoring, and trying to force people to become Christians. I believe when I preach, I should allow the Holy Spirit to do His work. Forced Christianity just doesn't work, and history tells us this, when the crusaders led by the edict of Pope Jerome killed many Jews because they wouldn't do it their way.

Have a great day in the Lord, golfjack

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

I have some things that I want to share with you but as you know I tend to be verbose at times and my hands are hurting right now.

Hopefully they will feel better by morning and I can get it all out.