Is attending a church necessary?

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

What I find wrong is the removal of free will from society. What good is it to God if someone is obeying the Bible when they are only doing it because it is the law of the land where they live? What good is a child's prayer when it's forced by a teacher?

The Bible does teach that there are rights and wrongs but God also allows people to make choices without force. If there is one thing that I have learned in life it's that pushing someone never brings them closer to us. Instead of asking the question "How can I MAKE someone see the way to God?" we would get much farther by asking "How can I inspire them to WANT to be closer to God? and when we answer that we are doing the best we can for God and Humanity.

The angry shouts of how God hates fags and abortion is the road to hell are not going to inspire anyone else to want to be like us, and in turn they will not bring anyone closer to God.

Matthew 23 tells us not to involve ourselves in politics that make the way hard for others.

1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

The Jesus that I know from the Bible tells us to reach out in love and faith, not in anger. The anger of Jesus was directed towards the ones who used the Church for financial and political gain. The Jesus I know from the Bible told us that our job of getting into heaven is so big that we should concentrate on that instead of concentrating on the sins of others.

I do agree that there are things that are sinful and a Christian should avoid those things. I do not believe that being a Christian gives us the right to strip others of free will.

nannabug · Growing Guppy Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Posts: 42

nannabug · Growing Guppy Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Posts: 42

golfjack · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: reply

What Jesus said in the Gospels was mainly directed at the Jewish leaders. Also, during His earthly mission, there was no Church extablished yet. I tell you the truth that American Church better wake up and not give a watered down Gospel for the sake of being politically correct. My Jesus would never approve of abortion and homosexuality, and I know when I preach the Word of God, whoever wants to hear will hear and those that won't open their eyes and ears are headed for destruction. My motto is, I would rather preach someone into heaven then love them into hell.

May God bless, golfjack

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

nannabug · Growing Guppy Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Posts: 42

lone-traveler · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:06 pm Post subject:

The Freedom of choice...

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

2Sa 24:12 Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three [things]; choose thee one of them, that I may [do it] unto thee.

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Now this one is interesting and worth looking into...

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

delusions...vain imaginations...fear... where do these come from?
notice it is their delusions and their fears...

God has been giving mankind free choice to believe in him or not since the beginning.

Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

nannabug · Growing Guppy Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Posts: 42

SarahJane, I obviously am failing in getting my point across to you correctly. I said absolutely nothing about abortion. Personally, I'm of the opinion that an unborn child is biological life alone until birth. But that is another topic for discussion. What I am trying to point out is that a society MUST have laws to protect the life, property and freedoms of all individuals within that society. Otherwise what we would have would be anarchy. Do you now understand what I'm saying?

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

golfjack · Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:41 am Post subject: reply

SarahJane, I think you may have mis-understood me. Of course we are commanded to love because the Bible says faith worketh by love. Because of love Paul was teaching the Church at Cornith this principle. Some were more concerned about their spiritual gifts than love. The Bible says that love is shed abroad in our hearts after being saved. The Holy Spirit through the gifts will lead us as to what to say to the lost. We have the Word of knowledge and Word of Wisdom, which is the result of being filled with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it is the Holy Spirit who convicts one. God has created the five-fold ministry to get the message out to the lost. Yes, He works through man. As far as the laity, the Bible says we are all ministers, and are to preach and teach the Word of God. This is our great call. All I am saying is that many liberal Churches are not doing what God has commanded. To me they are luke warm, and the Book of Revelation talks about the Laodacean Church, which is luke warm and says that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth if they don't repent. I don't know about you, but I want to belong to a soul winning Church, and not a Church who is wishy washy, and might say it is Ok to commit homosexual acts or other acts of sin because God does undestand. Of course, we can tell them the truth in boldness in love. Let me give you an example of an experience I had at a store: I was in line to check out, and the Lord spoke to me and said, ask that woman in front of you if you have ever been asked how do I get saved. So, I asked her, and she said that I was waiting for someone to ask me. I talked to her a little bit, and she accepted Christ right before my eyes. I could see the tears roll down her face and see the peace in our eyes. In fact, Iwas crying too. You see, I had a Word of Knowledge from God.

I like you, don't like preachers that would picket an abortion clinic or pornagraphy shop. I believe we must try our best to win the hearts and minds of the lost to Christ, recognizing, some just can't be won because of their hardened hearts. I do believe Christians can be involved in politics. For example, President Bush and others are giving this country a good Godly example. I also believe, Christians should vote for Godly men, and not a party that wants to say that Abortion for example is preserved by our Constitution. Many try to hide behind it to do their evil deeds. Roe Vs Wade is unconstitutional. The const. is not a living breathing document like many liberals say it is.

I hope this explains my position. I hope and pray that you find the peace you are looking for. Just open the door, and the Lord will meet you more than halfway.

May God bless, golfjack

nannabug · Growing Guppy Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Posts: 42

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

I do not recognize Jesus or the Holy Spirit in Bush at all. It frightens me when people give Bush the godly label.

Matthew 7:

15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The cruel attitude towards the poor is not any part of the Bible. The attempts to remove the free will to sin is not a part of the Bible. Bush has used the Christian message for political gain, and again that is not a part of the Bible. Bush lied to the public in order to start a war that has killed thousands, neither of which should be recognized as a Holy endeavour.

Many Christians like Bush because he prays in public, many like him because he wants to legislate Christians teachings. What has the Bible told us about those things?

I do not support homosexual marriage but it isn't up to me to remove the free will. Outlawing homosexuality will not do anything for God. Allowing them free will and helping them want to find their way to God is what the Bible teaches us. Bush has done exactly what the Bible warns us not to do politically. Bush has made life much harder for the working poor and has made himself appear to be a Christian. Those who follow Bush and believe his actions are godly are also damning the poor and making it more difficult for the poor to find their way to God. The brutality and cruelty towards the working poor will do more to push them away from Christ than it will to bring them closer. Putting on a cloak of Christianity to do it will further isolate the working poor.

The Bible tells us that the weak are the responsibility of the strong. The Bible tells us to feed the hungry. The Bible tells us not to make life more difficult for the poor. Yet what Bush has done is exactly what we are warned not to do.

golfjack · Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:44 am Post subject: reply

You are most certainly entitled to your opinion. You said we are to love and not hate. Well what you say about our President sure sounds like hate to me. Well, you can side with Kennedy, durbin, reid, boxer, kerry, Michel Moore, George Sorus, Streisand, and many other liberal bomb throwers. Liberals are ruining this country, and you need not lecture me about morals. Maybe, you should go back to Bible class 101.

May God bless, golfjack