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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:14 pm Post subject: General doctrine - leaving the Catholic Church |
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Jmj
Greetings folks! I’m starting this thread with the (very loose) intention of being able to discuss some issues that were brought up in another thread: http://bible-discussion.com/message-board-forum/about2726.html Another member (Golfjack) and I were discussing some issues that initially began with the “rapture” but sort of “branched out.” I just thought I’d start another thread to keep it more organized I guess. I’m pretty new at this sort of thing, but like I said… I thought it appropriate to leave that thread. And if there is a more appropriate place to have THIS thread, I’d appreciate some advice!
In any case… Jack, I thought I would address the opening to you directly! Hope you don’t mind!
You told me in an earlier discussion that you used to be Catholic. I am always curious about the “hows and whys” that influence the decision some Catholics make to leave the Church. I would like to say though, that I do not doubt your sincerity that you believed you were following God with this decision. 
You mentioned some of the issues you had with the Church:
| Quote: | | “I was raised a Catholic, and went to Catholic grade school, high school, and even Catholic University (Creighton Un). Not one time did any of the teachers tell me to read a Bible. They taught me things like Mortal sin, veniel sin, water baptism saves one, Mary had no sin and was assumed up to heaven, purgatory, if one gets divorce, they will not go to heaven and that sin cannot be forgiven, condemnation, praying the rosary, must go to mass on Sunday, transubstantuation, and many other unbiblical things.” |
Some of these issues are very different in their nature than others! What I mean is… some are more doctrinal issues (mortal and venial sin… or Baptism) and some are personal issues (like nobody telling you to read a Bible.) But, I’d really like to examine some of these issues with you. I believe there is a chance that some were simply based on a misunderstanding – and some of the others are not as “un-biblical” as you seem to believe. 
I would like to say (before I really address anything specific here) that I do not pretend to be an expert on Catholicism! I am only a layman… and I certainly do not consider myself to be a “good” Catholic – I AM trying though! It's an on-going process... carrying this cross. So, if I utter any heresy… feel free to correct me! If I stumble... I will accept any correction when I am ignorant on a particular issue… unless I research it for myself and find truth elsewhere… or if the truth on the issue is unclear and ambiguous.
Jack... I doubt that there is “one thing” in your mind, but if there was one thing that weighed in more heavily on your decision to leave the Catholic Church than any other…what would you say that would be? If not one… what are a few things that so strongly effected your decision to leave? Are the ones you already mentioned the core reasons for your decision to look elsewhere for Him? I am strongly and sincerely interested – this is an issue close to my heart.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
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"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1136
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:08 am Post subject: reply |
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Hi Jason, nice to hear from you. I believe you have answered your own question about me leaving the catholic church by saying that I am a bad Catholic. Does this tell you something? This church with it's teachings hasn't taught you much.
The one big that sticks out to me, as to why I left the catholic church is their interpretation of salvation. Many Catholic's Are taught about God, but don't know God in a personal way. God does speak to His people through the Holy Spirit, and once in awhile in an audible voice. When my Father died, I was in bed praying before the funeral, and a voive said preach my Word, and I said what? Again, the audible voice said, preach my Word. About a year after this, I was accepted to study at Rhema Bible traing center in Broken Arrow, Az., and completed a 2 year study and became a evangelist, who travels.
Like I said previously, I knew about God, but didn't know Him. Right now I have tears in my eyes for people who are in this condition. I am vvery passionate about this, and God's business is very serious. I can't judge anyones heart, but can judge their idealogy. Before Christ, basically I was a good person, but good people go to hell as a result of not having Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Salvation is a gift from God for those who accept His gift. Read Ephesians 2:8,9, FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH;AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD; NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.
Not of works! That punctures the baloon of the ego. Man wants to do something to save himself. He wants to have a part in it. But He can't. Mental assent is not good enough to save one. It's not good enough to accept Jesus with intellectual reception. You have to simply admit your helplessness, and your hopelessness. You have to admit that you are just what the Bible says, a lost sinner. Then you come and accept what Christ has wrought for you, a gift! Have you passed from spiritual death unto spiritual life. This is how it happened to me. It's a matter of trust in what Jesus did on the cross and nothing else. If you were to die this very second, Could you say I will go to heaven? Can you look up to heaven and say, Father God? Is His spirit within your spirit bearing that you are a child of God? Do you have the Holy Spirit in your spirit crying, ABBA, FATHER? you do if you are born again. Read Romans 8:14-16. If one is praying to Mary or so called cannonazied saints, believing in confirmation, church membership, water baptism, the taking of sacraments, observing religious duties, an intellecctual reception of Christianity, orthodoxy of faith, going to church, saying prayers, reading the Bible, being moral, being cuktured or refined, doing good deeds, doing your best, nor any of the many other things some men are trusting in to save them. Even if you are adding these things to being saved, it's nothing but works, religion, and improper Bible teaching. It's a slap in the face of Jesus to add these things unto so great a salvation, which is the plan of the Father, executed by Jesus Christ, and revealed by the Holy Spirit, as Ephesians 1 2 3 tells us about this plan of salvation. Believing in purgatory is just another man made thing added to the plan of salvation.
The Bible tells us a lot about salvation: We see in 2 Cor. 5:17, THEREFORE IF ANY MAN BE IN cHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATURE (CREATION); OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY; BEHOLD, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW. The New Birth is a new creation from above, the direct operation of the Word of God and the Spirit upon your life, changing your spirit completely when you truly repent and turn to God. This new creation is brought about in the following manner:
1. Recognize that you are a sinner, lost without God and without hope (Romans 3:23).
2. Admit that Jesus Christ died on the cross to save you from sin by His own precious blood
3. Come to God, turning away from sin and confessing Jesus as your Lord, and you shall be born again. (The Holy Spirit will then make you a new creature, cleansing you from all sin by the authority of the Word of God and by the blood of Christ which was shed to atone for your sin).
4. believe from your heart and confess with your mouth that God does forgive you of your sins and that you are born again. Here is some more scriptures which show you what you have in your authority to believe and to confess: Romans 10: 9, 10; John 1:12,13, and John 6:37. What a great plan huh?
Jason and others who read this post, Would say this with me?
Dear Heavenly Father, I come to you in the name of Jesus. Your Word says, him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out, so I know You won't cast me out, but You take me in and I thank you for it. You said in your Word, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom. 10:13). I am calling on Your name, so I know You have saved me now. You also said, if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (Rom. 10: 9,10). I believe in my heart Jesus Christ is the son of God. I believe that that He was raised from the dead for my justification, and I confess Him now as my Lord, because Your Word says, with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and I do believe with my heart, I have now become the righteousmness of God in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). And I am saved now! Jason and others, I hope you said this prayer. And this is why I left the Catholic church. What they teach is just not Bible teaching, pure and simple. I hope I didn't offend with this message, but you asked me to explain my position.
May God bless, Jack |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: In that same vein ... |
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In that same vein ... we are challenged by God to accept what God has done and is doing in our own life, and in the life of others, so that we allow God to work as He wills. " I do not frustrate the grace of God." Gal. 2:20
" Indeed, oh man, who are you to reply against God? Will the clay speak to God who formed it and ask," why have you made me like this?"" Romans 9:20
We are each being formed to display the angry displeasure of God or the goodness of God.
He is the potter and we are the clay.
thunder
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Thunder,
God is the potter and we are the clay. Some for honor and some for dishonor. But all in all, we are all God's creation.
Question...
If we judge another piece of pottery, are we not judging the creator who created it the way it was made?
When we question another persons belief or way of life, aren't we questioning God for how he made that person?
Do we humans have the right to questiion why God makes things this way or that?
I think the whole key is to only judge ourselves and whether everything we do is out of love. Which is God's will for us.
just thoughts
Lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly Lone.
There were some interesting entries in the thread called," who are we to judge, any way?"
It's worth a look.
thunder
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:48 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Greetings folks! Nice to see some comments here… and thank you for your detailed first response here Jack. I don’t know if I’m going to be able to keep my response short, since you covered so much… but I’ll try!
| Quote: | | Hi Jason, nice to hear from you. I believe you have answered your own question about me leaving the catholic church by saying that I am a bad Catholic. Does this tell you something? This church with it's teachings hasn't taught you much. |
I’m sorry if you thought I was calling you a bad Catholic Jack! I know that you ARE a Catholic, but I never meant to call you names! And I’m not sure what you mean by the second part… what did I say that showed the Church hasn’t taught me much?
| Quote: | | The one big that sticks out to me, as to why I left the catholic church is their interpretation of salvation. Many Catholic's Are taught about God, but don't know God in a personal way. |
How do you know that “many Catholics… don’t know God in a personal way”? This is unfair speculation at best my friend. At worst – it might help for you to take another look at the 8th Commandment – “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.” The status of many Catholics’ relationships with God is not yours to speak for. But, I do understand (I think) what your point was. According to your new definitions and jargon… you might (for example only) go up to an unsuspecting Catholic walking out of Mass, ask them a few pointed questions about their relationship with God… and based on their (incorrect – according to you) answers – you might decide that they do NOT have a relationship with God. Or, if they do… it is an imperfect relationship - marred and disfigured by misunderstanding. Even if you have come across this… I still think that it’s quite an unfair thing to say that “many” of the 1.3 billion Catholics in the world don’t know God in a personal way.
As far as the Church and her understanding about salvation – you have to take that up with God my friend… truly. The Church’s understanding comes from Him – an understanding which can be well illustrated and supported by the Scriptures. I believe that your understanding (now) comes from the Protestant reformation and (historically speaking) newer Biblical interpretations of passages regarding salvation. What’s the difference? Both you and the Church can make appeals to Scripture. But how do you figure it out when both parties make valid and apparently spirit-filled references to the Bible? “Who has the most quotes from the Bible to support their claim… you or the Church???” – is that how you’d decide who was right? How about - “Who has the most education backing it up (in seminary time… or professional degrees… or who has spent the most time collectively studying the Scriptures) you and your church or the Catholic Church?” You see what I’m saying here Jack? How do you know that your Biblical interpretation is better that the Church’s? Especially when some of these interpretations or doctrines you subscribe to are not explicitly taught in the Bible – and have very little (if any) evidence that anyone believed anything similar in the history of Christianity before the 16th century. (Rejection of the need for Baptism… or rejection of infant Baptism - just to give a couple of examples)
| Quote: | | God does speak to His people through the Holy Spirit, and once in awhile in an audible voice. |
I agree and of course the Church does as well! She always has! If you thought the Church believes otherwise – and that was a factor in your leaving… you’re one step closer to coming home! Praise the Lord!
| Quote: | | When my Father died, I was in bed praying before the funeral, and a voive said preach my Word, and I said what? Again, the audible voice said, preach my Word. About a year after this, I was accepted to study at Rhema Bible traing center in Broken Arrow, Az., and completed a 2 year study and became a evangelist, who travels. |
Wonderful! I think you may have truly been blessed with this experience! I will pray for you to maintain, grow stronger, and always seek to know and to preach the truth in this wonderful vocation
| Quote: | | Like I said previously, I knew about God, but didn't know Him. Right now I have tears in my eyes for people who are in this condition. I am vvery passionate about this, and God's business is very serious. |
I know how you feel – it’s quite a burden to suffer for people (as your heart breaks for them) and they do not even realize or appreciate just how much you truly care for them! But I think you’re on the right track my friend! Keep it up… as we remember to “rejoice” in our suffering as St. Paul says!
| Quote: | | I can't judge anyones heart, but can judge their idealogy. |
Yes, we should not judge people’s “hearts,” – I personally stumble for this sin all too often. As far as judging “their idealogy” goes – are you implying that you are God’s personal judge of ideology? lol
But in truth, I’m only half-joking though Jack, because while I don’t think you’re trying to say you’re God’s personal doctrine lawyer… I do think you seem to feel qualified to decide (on some things at least) what is correct doctrine and what is not. But, I have to ask… who appointed you to this position? Or what qualifications do you feel you have that would make your opinions more accurate and truthful than other sincere and spirit-filled Chrisitans? Or… am I just COMPLETELY misunderstanding you here!? lol
Here’s what I’m getting from you… I am getting the impression that you feel qualified because (based on your Biblical interpretations, maybe a few things that other people pointed out to you about your Church, and some prompting by the Holy Spirit) you have decided that the Catholic Church is teaching incorrect doctrine. I’m I getting that right?
| Quote: | | Before Christ, basically I was a good person, but good people go to hell as a result of not having Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. |
I agree with the point that just being a really good person is not what salvation is about… but where in the Scriptures does it say “people go to hell as a result of not having Jesus Christ as their personal Savior?” This is not a very “Biblical” statement – though I agree it can be pulled from the Bible. But I don't think you will find words or a sentence bearing much similarity to this statement in the Scriptures. “Accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” is a wonderful thing to do! And it is something that all Christians SHOULD have… but that statement, in itself is not enough – and it appears nowhere in the Bible my friend. We (of course) find salvation through Christ alone – so I agree with you if that was your point.
| Quote: | | Salvation is a gift from God for those who accept His gift. Read Ephesians 2:8,9, FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH;AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD; NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. |
I have read it many times and I completely agree!
I think that if you read this passage in context - you will see that it is being applied to a very specific idea. That idea being that good works done without and not motivated by our faith don’t get us very far with God. I mean... anybody could take thier child into the wilderness or up a mountain with the intent of killing and burning them... I don't imagine God would be pleased if it wasn't done out of faith like Abraham. We must do works - our Chrisitanity has a question mark if we don't! This passage is not saying “don’t worry about ‘works’ – they don’t matter… all that matters is that you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior!” lol
We most definitely are commanded to do good works my friend! It’s always baffled me why Protestants make such a big deal out of the whole “works” thing. Not to sound mean, but it sounds kind of like looking for the easiest path to heaven to me. To me, making such a big deal out of it... and saying “Works don’t matter! It’s faith alone that matters! (I’ve heard this plenty of times!) - that sounds an awful lot like “we are saved… and we SHOULD do good works… but we don’t really HAVE to.” See what I’m saying?
| Quote: | | That punctures the baloon of the ego. Man wants to do something to save himself. He wants to have a part in it. But He can't. Mental assent is not good enough to save one. It's not good enough to accept Jesus with intellectual reception. |
This all is confusing to me… it seems like you are contradicting yourself. Help me understand! I agree with a lot of this, but then you say “mental assent is not good enough to save one” – that implies to me that you have to do MORE than just believe in God… (continued)
| Quote: | | You have to simply admit your helplessness, and your hopelessness. You have to admit that you are just what the Bible says, a lost sinner. |
Then you ADMIT that you must do works with this list of things that “you have” to DO! I agree that we have to do these things too (I certainly don’t mean to imply that a person should not be aware of their sins and repent) – but why don’t you see these things as the good works that they are!? What are they to you… bad works!? lol
| Quote: | | Then you come and accept what Christ has wrought for you, a gift! Have you passed from spiritual death unto spiritual life. This is how it happened to me. It's a matter of trust in what Jesus did on the cross and nothing else. If you were to die this very second, Could you say I will go to heaven? |
I do agree that it is “a mater of trust in what Jesus did on the cross” – but I don’t agree with the “and nothing else” part. I know that if all that is required in our faith is belief, but no obedience… it’s an empty faith. And to answer your question, I would say that if I were to die this second… I would “hope” for heaven. I do not believe in assurance of salvation my friend, I am very hopeful though… that “provided” I “continue in His kindness” I might not be “cut off” by my own doing. So, I am hopeful. If I am SURE of my salvation… what reason is there to be hopeful? It is in this hope that we are saved – not through assurance.
| Quote: | | Can you look up to heaven and say, Father God? Is His spirit within your spirit bearing that you are a child of God? Do you have the Holy Spirit in your spirit crying, ABBA, FATHER? you do if you are born again. Read Romans 8:14-16. If one is praying to Mary or so called cannonazied saints, believing in confirmation, church membership, water baptism, the taking of sacraments, observing religious duties, an intellecctual reception of Christianity, orthodoxy of faith, going to church, saying prayers, reading the Bible, being moral, being cuktured or refined, doing good deeds, doing your best, nor any of the many other things some men are trusting in to save them. Even if you are adding these things to being saved, it's nothing but works, religion, and improper Bible teaching. It's a slap in the face of Jesus to add these things unto so great a salvation, which is the plan of the Father, executed by Jesus Christ, and revealed by the Holy Spirit, as Ephesians 1 2 3 tells us about this plan of salvation. Believing in purgatory is just another man made thing added to the plan of salvation. |
No kidding! Lol
That was quite a list Jack, if I had the time – I’d love to go into detail about every one… but I don’t! I’m sorry. I will say this though, your feelings about many of these “things” seem very strong to me. I wonder if you are not harboring some kind of grudge against the Church for something? Like I’ve said before, many of the “things” you listed are VERY different from each other… I’m a little surprised that you have no problem lumping them into the same category as though you believe the Church teaches they are all required for our salvation (because the Church certainly does not.) Truly Jack… I would love to go into more detail on each one, but I can’t in this post. Maybe if you'd just started out with a couple issues that are really important for you - I would try to tackle them... but that's just too much right now! I hope we continue this and maybe we can devote some time to each “thing” and give your issues the attention they deserve.
| Quote: | The Bible tells us a lot about salvation: We see in 2 Cor. 5:17, THEREFORE IF ANY MAN BE IN cHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATURE (CREATION); OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY; BEHOLD, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW. The New Birth is a new creation from above, the direct operation of the Word of God and the Spirit upon your life, changing your spirit completely when you truly repent and turn to God. This new creation is brought about in the following manner:
1. Recognize that you are a sinner, lost without God and without hope (Romans 3:23). |
This is completely true! Amen!
| Quote: | | 2. Admit that Jesus Christ died on the cross to save you from sin by His own precious blood |
Yes He did! Praise the Lord!
| Quote: | | 3. Come to God, turning away from sin and confessing Jesus as your Lord, and you shall be born again. (The Holy Spirit will then make you a new creature, cleansing you from all sin by the authority of the Word of God and by the blood of Christ which was shed to atone for your sin). |
Provided you cooperate with His command and example to be Baptized of course . Our sins are truly cleansed through the sacrament of Baptism, the sacrament that makes us a new creation in Him. Disregarding the physical aspect of our conversion (Baptism - which was never meant to be separated from this experience... think... Spirit AND water!??? Sound familiar;)) is disobeying the Word. Your apparent belief (or interpretation) that Baptism is a disposable, unnecessary, or a purely symbolic sacrament (or ordinance if you prefer) is in the serious minority when it comes to contemporary Christianity my friend. And completely contrary to history – let alone the Bible! Most Protestants do not believe this… and I think this rejection of baptism is a very good example of a “doctrine of men.”
Maybe you don’t believe that Baptism is as “disposable” as you make it seem, so I’ll keep that in mind. But, your error is very misleading and will (and has) caused confusion and sacrilege amongst Christians. I really hope that you do not continue to treat the sacrament of Baptism so carelessly – I pray that the people you minister to do not suffer for your mistake.
| Quote: | | 4. believe from your heart and confess with your mouth that God does forgive you of your sins and that you are born again. Here is some more scriptures which show you what you have in your authority to believe and to confess: Romans 10: 9, 10; John 1:12,13, and John 6:37. What a great plan huh? |
It IS a great plan! And ALL Catholics are born again Jack! You cannot be a Catholic and not be born again!
| Quote: | Jason and others who read this post, Would say this with me?
Dear Heavenly Father, I come to you in the name of Jesus. Your Word says, him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out, so I know You won't cast me out, but You take me in and I thank you for it. You said in your Word, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom. 10:13). I am calling on Your name, so I know You have saved me now. You also said, if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (Rom. 10: 9,10). I believe in my heart Jesus Christ is the son of God. I believe that that He was raised from the dead for my justification, and I confess Him now as my Lord, because Your Word says, with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and I do believe with my heart, I have now become the righteousmness of God in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). And I am saved now! Jason and others, I hope you said this prayer. And this is why I left the Catholic church. What they teach is just not Bible teaching, pure and simple. I hope I didn't offend with this message, but you asked me to explain my position.
May God bless, Jack |
I thought that was a very nice prayer Jack, truly I did. And I thought it was really very nice of you to say those things and invite us all to say the prayer with you… right up until the end when you took a shot at the Church! What was that for!? Your “pure and simple” is definitely not so pure and simple – and in a way… that small part of your post stained your otherwise well-intentioned prayer. It’s like getting up in front of a bunch of people and giving a nice speech about how great it is to be an American… Yay for America!!! And how much you love your country… and everybody listening is going NUTS and eating up every patriotic word you’re saying! And while everybody is still clapping and yelling their heads off in praise and pride for their country, you say… “but I hate George Bush.” Silence.
Kind of makes you feel like the whole speech was a rip-off! lol
If it is your charge, that the Church is not Biblical or that it is anti-Biblical, I have to tell you… what the Church teaches (without exception) is never anti-Biblical! It is quite literally impossible for this to be true. There is no church more “Biblical” church than the Catholic Church. And I think that if you truly believe that the Church teaches so much that is CONTRARY to the Bible, you didn’t know the Church very well before you “left.” I may not know very much about the Church compared to most, but I know enough to know that a lot of what you are charging the Church with is false my friend.
| Quote: | | I hope I didn't offend with this message, but you asked me to explain my position. |
Jack, truly – if you don’t purposely try to offend me, I don’t think you should worry about it. I feel the same way though! I don’t want to mess up while I’m witnessing either, so I know how you feel! People can focus too much on HOW the message is being communicated sometimes… instead of focusing on the message itself! “Pray for me,” my brother in Christ, “that I may proclaim it clearly, as I should.” I will pray that for you.
As far as your reasons… several are very familiar to me, I’ve heard similar charges from former Catholics and Protestants who were never Catholics. I hope that we continue this dialogue and explore some of them more. I do think it might be helpful to ask you again though… about your feelings towards the Catholic Church. Some of what you are charging the Church with is understandable – though misguided or misunderstood I feel. But SOME of the things are not and seem a little… I don’t know… irrational? I mean, what happened to you Jack? You don’t present the Church and her teachings in a fair manner at all… and you should know better about at least SOME of what the Church teaches, because you “used to be" a Catholic! This leads me to believe that you have something preventing you from taking an honest look at the Catholic Church and her teachings, or if not preventing… then at least making it more difficult for you. I don’t want to open it up if it’s too painful for you… but were you a victim or otherwise effected by some crime or something done by another member of the Church? If so, I will pray for you my brother. And I hope that you give some thought to this – as it may be a large factor in why you feel the way you do. Don't reject His Church because the sins of people within her - and don't reject His Church because what she teaches might be hard for you personally to accept or deal with - these are not reasons we will want to fall back on when we are Judged.
I saw that you spoke to my lack of response as of yet in the other thread. I’m sorry it took me so long to respond, but I cannot tell you how busy I’ve been lately! I have very little time to do things like this. Please don’t view this as a lack of consideration, it’s not meant to be… and is beyond my control at the moment! I will make as much effort as I can to continue to contribute - I can promise you that! And I'm so sorry this was such a long post! I waste a lot of words probably. My apologies for it being long and boring!
I will pray for you by brother. Please pray for me.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
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"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
Jack, I guess my post was way too long to want to respond to – I don’t blame you for not doing it!
Let me bring up one issue then… to make it easier.
You seem to insinuate that the Church teaches that Christians can “work” their way into heaven. That… if you are a good person and do all kinds of great and charitable things, you will go to heaven. If you think that this is what the Church teaches, you are in grave misunderstanding my friend. The Church has never taught and never will teach that salvation comes through works – good or otherwise! If this is part of what is keeping you from the Church, please re-consider your reasons… you very well may have been misled. 
The key issue as I see it here - is extremely important, though you may not see it. The way it is though… is that the Church belongs to God, it is His. If you (or anyone for that matter) were considering making the conscious choice to reject and leave that Church (whether your motives were pure and your intentions were honest is not the issue) you would owe it to yourself to take great care with this choice. I myself considered leaving the Church after I was given a tract from a fundamentalist Protestant publisher that exposed the “truth” of what the Catholic Church taught. Then, when I began reading about different denominations and their history and beliefs, I came across a consistency in the form of a “plea” to prospective converts. To simplify, I’ll say it as though it came from a Baptist church… it said: “Please take the time to study the Bible and learn about what our church teaches from US – not from someone else.” The point is… if you want to know what a church (or any group of people for that matter) teaches, the best place to find out is to go to the SOURCE! If you really want to know what Baptists (for example) believe – go to an authorized source! (For Baptists in particular – I highly recommend the book “We Baptists” by the Baptist World Alliance. It’s scholarly and authoritative, yet simple and accessible for the average inquirer.)
“Sounds pretty simple” – I thought. I did the same thing with MY Church, the Catholic Church. And what I found was… that many of the things people SAY the Church teaches… the Church DOESN’T even teach at all! Or, the accusations and issues people have with the Church are based on serious misunderstanding. Whatever the case, there is a good (more than good actually) explanation for every single thing the Church teaches. Does it all square with the Bible? Absolutely – I am positive that everything the Church teaches is far from anti-Biblical in any sense! It’s all VERY moving and VERY inspiring… the ways God works through His Church… and I know that you will feel so too when you understand it a little better.
I guess that the point I’m trying to make is… that I think you should seriously consider making an honest and thorough study of your home – the Church you left. If then, you still feel as convicted as you do – I suppose you will simply have to follow the Holy Spirit speaking to your heart! But… I caution you, if you sincerely believe that the Church teaches some of the things you’ve said – you have (without a doubt) not come to that point my friend. Because if you believe everything you’ve said… you don’t really know what the Church teaches – you’re probably just taking someone else’s word for it.
Let me recommend a simple book for you – rather than point you to the Catechism (though you really should read that as well – it’s wonderful!) Try the book, “Why Do Catholics Do That?” by Kevin Orlin Johnson. It comes with a Nihil Obstat, and Imprimatur – so you know that what it says doesn’t conflict with official Church teaching and is doctrinally free from error. 
I hope that you consider this! Truly. I will pray for you to come home my brother and for Him to strengthen you on your journey.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1136
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: reply |
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Hi Jason, Yesterday was the first time I received your message. When interpreting the Bible, the one thing that I really believe and convinced is that most Catholics don't understand that we are spirit, soul, and body, referenced by 1 Thess. 5:23. The book of Romans can be difficult if one doesn't understand the three-fold nature of man. I think this may help.
About water Baptism: In John 3:5, the water is referring to the word of God. and Spirit is referring to the regeneration by the Holy Spirit to our spirit to create in us a brand new spirit acceptable to God the Father. Acts 10:43 tells we must believe in Christ for the remission of sins, and nothing more or less. Does water forgive one? NO. Does water baptism symbolize the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and should be done publically to announce that we are Christians? YES. The thief on the cross wasn't water baptised, but believed. Suggest you read Eph. 5:26; and 1 Peter 1:23 to reference that water is referred to the Word of God in reference to John 3:5.
I have one more question: What makes you think that the Catholic Church has the right interpretation of the Bible?
May God bless, golfjack |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
| Quote: | | Hi Jason, Yesterday was the first time I received your message. |
Greetings Jack! Good to see you again my friend!
| Quote: | | When interpreting the Bible, the one thing that I really believe and convinced is that most Catholics don't understand that we are spirit, soul, and body, referenced by 1 Thess. 5:23. The book of Romans can be difficult if one doesn't understand the three-fold nature of man. I think this may help. |
You may be right that delving into the whole “soma, psyche, and pneuma” discussion could provide some insight into what you already read into the book of Romans – but, in all honesty, I don’t think that the doctrine of the Trichotomy really has a whole lot of bearing. Just my opinion. But, I think that MANY Catholics are aware of the “three-fold nature of man" idea.
| Quote: | | About water Baptism: In John 3:5, the water is referring to the word of God. and Spirit is referring to the regeneration by the Holy Spirit to our spirit to create in us a brand new spirit acceptable to God the Father |
I'm curious, when you say “the word of God” do you mean the Scriptures (the written) or the actual Word – Jesus Christ? And where exactly does your interpretation come from? I think the idea that Jesus isn’t referring to Baptism here would be hard to justify historically – not to mention looking at the context! If what you say is true – why did Jesus even use “water?” The use of “water” (or “Hudōr hudatos” in Greek - I've never studied Greek, but I have a KJV Bible with Strong's numbers and definitions that comes in handy! ) does NOT imply or refer to anything (literally or figuratively) except water. Why try to insert another meaning when it nullifies what He is saying? Water AND Spirit – He said… they are linked. Why water? Because He wanted it to be so! I think the water wouldn’t mean much without the actual words of God (who SPOKE the universe into creation) backing it up though. He could just have easily decided to use alcohol, soap, mud, or any number of things that can also be used to “clean." But He didn’t choose these things… He chose water - I think this is pretty neat.
| Quote: | | Acts 10:43 tells we must believe in Christ for the remission of sins, and nothing more or less. |
I think you’re trying to insert some particular meaning here to fit your doctrine. “To him all the prophets give testimony, that by his name all receive remission of sins, who believe in him.” – I don’t see anything wrong with this at all! After all, in who else’s name CAN we receive forgiveness!? But, what I want to know is… where it says “nothing more or less?” I really don’t see that implied here at all, let alone being literally “told.” And, if you read it in context, Peter is speaking about the necessity of Baptizing (with water) gentiles who have believed. If belief was all that we “need”… why did Peter in these passages recognize the “need” for Cornelius to be Baptized immediately anyway?
| Quote: | | Does water forgive one? NO. Does water baptism symbolize the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and should be done publically to announce that we are Christians? YES. The thief on the cross wasn't water baptised, but believed. Suggest you read Eph. 5:26; and 1 Peter 1:23 to reference that water is referred to the Word of God in reference to John 3:5. |
Catholics do not believe that mere water (as in… two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen) forgives anyone. I don’t go to my kitchen every time I feel bad about how I handled something, turn on the faucet, pray that the almighty Water forgives me… and dunk my head into the sink. 
What I want to know is, where does the Bible say that Baptism is only symbolic? This thinking is what allows “Christians” (I use the term loosely here) to think they can discard the sacrament (and they HAVE!  ) of Baptism altogether if they wish. After all, it’s only symbolic!
Since you seem to really want to believe that Baptism has no real effect on us… and have provided references to Scripture to support your claim, I feel I should try to answer you as Christ did in the beginning of Luke 4 – with Scripture.
“John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism.” I think this is very moving – as it shows us exactly what is meant to happen when we are baptized. But, if you think about it… didn’t God (the second Person of the Trinity) come to Earth to do many things? One of which was to set an example for us to live by… since humanity had been incapable of living without sin before Him? If the Holy Spirit descended upon Him when He was Baptized – don’t you think that means something??? Obviously (I think) - Jesus was fully God Himself, so what need had He for the Holy Spirit to descend upon Him if not to show us something important? I don’t think the Holy Spirit descending upon Someone and God’s actual Voice calling down from heaven immediately after they are baptized seems very “symbolic” – I think it seems pretty “real” to me.
“John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).”
“John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.”
“John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.”
“Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are NEVER separated in the Scriptures.”
“Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.”
“Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.”
“Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.”
“Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.”
“2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.”
“Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.”
“Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.”
How about some passages on the saving nature (in opposition to the purely symbolic nature) of Baptism?
Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Some Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teachings of Christianity.
Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.
Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.
Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”
John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.
Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?
Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?
Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.
Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.
“Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.
Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.
1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.
Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.
Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.
Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.
There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.
Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.
Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.
Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.
Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).
Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.
1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.”
Lots of quotes, I know! I’m should apologize I guess… I didn’t list them all to bore you though – I find some to be EXTREMELY moving. But I was trying to illustrate a point (I’ll explain in a moment.) Also, I should source all these references better, I know, but I don’t know if MLA really applies to online posting! I left the majority as original, but added a few words and made some punctuation changes to the Scriptural text - I would think you shouldn't have any problems telling when I put in my own two cents. But let me know!
I’ll give you a link here! http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-I
In any case, part of my point was that we can argue back and forth based on what our traditions teach about certain passages from the Scriptures – but we may not end up coming to any sort of agreement! Why? Because… “Who decides!?” is such an important question! “SO WHAT!?” if I provided more quotes and references from the Bible than you did!? That doesn’t mean you couldn’t turn around and do the same… providing more quotes than I did, all in an attempt to try to disprove MY points! Then where would we be? Back and forth, back and forth… until one of us says, “We’ll just have to agree to disagree” or something like that – and move on to another topic out of frustration and boredom! lol
Which makes your final sentence so important!!!
| Quote: | | I have one more question: What makes you think that the Catholic Church has the right interpretation of the Bible? |
I think what a lot of this boils down to is authority. The Catholic Church DOES claim to have authority, but does not claim that this authority BELONGS to the Church – this authority came from Jesus Himself. Jesus left us a Church to guide us, with a command to “preach” - not a Book to guide us, with a command to “write.” This is a simple fact my friend. Which brings up another extremely important point… why do you believe in the authority of the Bible? Because I know I can answer that question!!! (I just know EVERYTHING don't I!? )
You believe in the authority of the Scriptures because the Catholic Church said so!
The simple fact is - that a group of Catholic men… quite a long time after Jesus walked the earth… exercised their authority (entrusted to them by God) to decide EXACTLY what books were to be included in what we call the New Testament. Fallible men making an infallible declaration! It happens.
You and all the other Bible-believing Protestants, we Catholics, and the Orthodox Christians – we ALL accept the Canon of the NT based on this same authority. There’s really no getting around this. Ask your ‘reformer’ forefathers – “Where did we get the Bible?”
In all fairness, your question to me could easily be turned right back around at you. What makes me think that the Catholic Church has the right interpretation of the Bible? Because the Bible is the Church’s book! The books of the NT were written by members of the Church, the final decision as to which books were “officially” part of the Bible was made by the Church, the Church guarded and protected the Bible for CENTURIES – preserving the precious Scriptures, and the Church is still and always will be the home of this wonderful gift from God.
The way I see it… you accept the Bible because of the Church, but reject the Church because of the Bible? That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me!
I will continue to pray for you to come home Jack, and I will continue to pray for all our separated brothers and sisters - in the hopes of real unity for our Lord Jesus Christ. Please pray for me. And forgive me for not being a very good witness and not explaining things as well as I should. 
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Jack, I've been patiently waiting for some sort of response for a while now. So, I feel like asking... "What's the deal man!?"
I know that my last post was pretty long, if you're a little "put off" by lengthy reading... I apologize. And I will try not to make my posts or replies too long in the future.
Looking forward to hearing back from you.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1136
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:42 am Post subject: reply |
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Sorry that I didn't get back to you, but I thought I did. I guess the topic is water Baptism. You showed many verses from the Bible. Let's examine one Scripture that I believe is absolute truth aboout water baptism not having anything to do with saving anyone. 1 Cor. 1:17. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel, not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of it's power. Are you suggesting that the people Paul preached to were not saved because they were not water baptized? The operative words are that first we must admit we are sinners, repent, and believe that our sins are forgiven by the shed blood of Jesus Christ (perfect sacrifice, and the last sacrifice that can save one). And done through history, this has been done for about 2000 years. It's all about believing with a heart that truly trust Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross.. Then we use Romans 10:9-10, and God will honor His Word that we are saved. Salvation is not a type of a step problem to be saved. It's all about forgiveness that is available to everyone who believes the message of the Gospel.
May God bless, Jack |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
Jack, it’s good to hear back from you! I figured you were angry or something. Glad to see you again my friend! I had to read your reply a few times. I was trying to figure it out. My question was (to myself) was – “why does his reply seem so confusing?” Then, I figured it out! It seems confusing… because it IS confusing!
First, I just wanted to say that my post (where I listed all the quotes) wasn’t really ABOUT water Baptism – that was just a part of it. I was trying to speak to something a little deeper than that. But, Baptism IS extremely important – and since I’ve read a post in another thread where you ASSURED someone that water Baptism doesn’t mean anything (as in - have anything to do with our salvation)… I’ll stay on that topic for another post I guess!
If you REALLY believe that St. Paul is saying in 1COR1:17 that Baptism is unimportant and has nothing to do with salvation… I would be sort of shocked. But, I don’t really believe you think this. I mean, how could you!? Even a simple look at the context would show that he (St. Paul) is saying nothing of the sort. He is responding directly to people claiming to be baptized into the “name” of different Apostles - that they are followers of specific disciples and/or Jesus. I really don’t even need to look it up as I am pretty familiar with the text – but I will. 
He specifically mentions people (or gives the example of people) claiming to be Baptized in the name of certain individuals… or followers of certain individuals… he mentions himself, Apollo, Cephas (Peter,) and Christ. I think that saying that he was speaking about the lack of need for Baptism is not very accurate my friend. He was (of course) illustrating a very important point… that Christians are not followers of other Christians, we are followers of Christ! I don’t think you have to try too hard to see this in the text.
In any case, even if you DO believe that St. Paul is saying Baptism affects nothing – it certainly doesn’t say it very clearly! At the VERY least, you would have to do some serious stretching, pushing, and pulling to make those passages fit what you’re saying – that “Baptism has nothing to do with our salvation.” But, you will never find those words in the Scriptures my friend – and for good reason too! It’s simply not true!
Yes, you’re right… I gave a lot of quotes from the Holy Bible… did you read any of them?
After all, I think some fit the issue a heck of a lot better than the one you provided! And in some cases, I would say that they EXPLICITLY demonstrate the exact opposite of what you say you believe – based on what the Bible teaches! How crazy is that!? You say you believe what the Bible teaches, though the Bible teaches the opposite of what you believe! If you really, really, REALLY, want to believe (or continue to believe) that Baptism doesn’t affect our salvation – I think you’re just going to have to ignore the evidence that says otherwise.
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Being baptized for the “remission of sins?” and we will receive the Holy Spirit? Wait a minute… I thought St. Paul said that Baptism doesn’t have anything to do with our salvation!? What’s this about forgiving sins and receiving the Holy Spirit? St. Paul must be wrong! Or… maybe I just misunderstood him?
I mean, I’m trying to put a little humor into this … but seriously Jack, I tried really hard to give you some good stuff, why not just take a moment to think and pray about it?  I’m really and truly trying to connect with you on your level… you don’t believe me (I might be deceived after all) you don’t believe the Church (because, of course the Church fell into apostasy and has continued in its corrupt ways)… but you claim to believe the Scriptures. So, that’s how I’m trying to relate to you! Give me a chance man!
If what St. Peter said wasn’t enough… how about Jesus Himself? “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Your St. Paul quote from 1st Corinthians was pretty vague at best… this is a lot clearer if you ask me. If belief was all we needed… and Baptism was not needed… why did JESUS tell us that we need both!? Read it a few times my friend. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." I wonder what He meant!?
Also, like I said… your reply was a little confusing. I don’t think what I said implied that the Corinthians St. Paul was writing to weren’t saved – they just needed correction! Thank God for St. Paul eh!? In addition, your comment about “this has been done for about 2,000 years” – was that meant to imply that this idea that Baptism is purely and only symbolic has been taught for 2,000 years? We can certainly get into Church history and take a look at what Christians have believed for the last 2,000 years if you’d like… but, I have to say… if you mean to say that Christians have believed for 2,000 years that Baptism has no effect on our salvation - you won’t be able to support that claim very well. But seriously… I think it would be very worthwhile for you to try to find support for that claim. So, consider this a friendly challenge Jack! If you want to make an attempt, I’ll provide evidence that the Church has always taught the true and saving nature of Baptism – you try and demonstrate the opposite. But, let’s try to keep our quotes and references closer to the time of Christ and the Apostles… let’s say… anything up until the 16th Century is fair game! You just lead the way if you’re up to it!
In any case. I know I can learn a lot from you; after all… you’ve spent so much time dedicated to growing closer to God. And I promise that I will try to seriously consider everything you say and share with me! But, I hope and pray that you can do the same. And I will continue to pray that your heart will no longer be hardened against His Church. You will always be welcome in your home my brother! Why not BECOME that prodigal son!? Sincerely, I will continue to pray for you Jack... and I humbly ask for your prayers as well.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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a pilgrim
Newbie Alert
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:08 pm Post subject: kind of off current topic |
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Hello, I just happened upon this site and thought to perhaps join in. Jason, I will address this to you since you are at the top of the thread. You said that you are pretty new to this sort of thing, with this being my first posting to any online forum I am very new.
I like the ‘ Bible Doctrine ‘ forum title and would like to stay in it, whose church is better is not really the issue ( unless that is the only topic of interest for this thread ).
Do you believe that some understanding of both the Old and the New Testament is important? I do. It is the Old Testament that tells us what happened to our position with God and then goes on through the New Testament to tell us what has been done to allow us back into fellowship with Him. Sin is the real issue and how to get it forgiven is the most important thing for any individual to know.
Is it acceptable in this thread for me to kind of change the line of questioning? I will of course take no offense, for I am obviously off topic, if you suggest my question will be better placed elsewhere.
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tom |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Pilgrim, you’re most welcome with your comments and/or questions!
| Quote: | | Sin is the real issue and how to get it forgiven is the mos |
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