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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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 Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:38 pm Post subject: HOLY SPIRIT IMPERSONALIZED |
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I want to post some material on Jehovah's Witness history and doctrine. I will do this in small threads so that anyone disputing the material can remain focused on the individual topic rather than bouncing around.
This thread will focus on the Holy Spirit and how the Jehova's Witnesses have mad Him an impersonable force
Holy Spirit
According to the Watchtower Society the Holy Spirit is not part of the Godhead. Both the personality and the deity of the Holy Spirit (defined as "the invisible active force of Almighty God which moves His servants to do His will" ) are denied. The personality of the Holy Spirit is consistently rejected throughout the New World Translation by not capitalizing the term "spirit" when referring to the Holy Spirit.
To promulgate this error they mistranslate such passages as Ephesians 4:30 ("also, do not be grieving God's holy spirit, with which you have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom") and John 14:26 ("But the helper, the holy spirit which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you”).
However, both of these verses teach the personality of the Holy Spirit. How can one grieve something impersonal? Or how can an "impersonal force," teach all things? Competent translations substitute "with which" in Ephesians 4:30 with "by whom," and have "whom the Father will send" and "he will teach you" in John 14:26 rather than the impersonal holy spirit of the Watchtower.
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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mijt1
Big Hamster
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 98
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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What is the holy spirit?
A comparison of Bible texts that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as 'filling' people; they can be 'baptized' with it; and they can be "anointed" with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.
Jesus also referred to the holy spirit as a "helper" (Greek, pa·ra´kle·tos), and he said that this helper would "teach," "bear witness," "speak," and 'hear.' (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13) It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something to be personified. For example, wisdom is said to have "children." (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as being kings. (Rom. 5:14, 21) While some texts say that the spirit "spoke," other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.) At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also "the water and the blood" are said to 'bear witness.' So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person.
The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit all the scriptures that refer to that spirit. With this viewpoint, it is logical to conclude that the holy spirit is the active force of God. It is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will.-Ps. 104:30; 2 Pet. 1:21; Acts 4:31. |
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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mijt1 wrote: | What is the holy spirit?
A comparison of Bible texts that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as 'filling' people; they can be 'baptized' with it; and they can be "anointed" with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.
The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit all the scriptures that refer to that spirit. With this viewpoint, it is logical to conclude that the holy spirit is the active force of God. It is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will.-Ps. 104:30; 2 Pet. 1:21; Acts 4:31. |
It is interesting that in your post and in JW information the Holy Spirit of God is approached as an "it". What is so interesting about this is this observation is ONLY held by JW's. No other biblical reference or church doctrine hold this position. Why is that? Perhaps it is because this is yet again another example of false teaching creeping into the church and teachers building up themselves and not our Lord Jesus. Lets look at a few passages. I will emhasize the personal pronoun used each time.
In John 16:7-9, Jesus said, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you." And when He is come He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on Me.”
In John 14:16-17, Jesus said, "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever."
The Greek word for Comforter is paraclete. It means somebody who is standing alongside of you to help you, to comfort you, an intercessor, an advocate. This does not in any sense carry the meaning of an "it" but rather of a "whom", a Person.
The Bible says, in John 14:26. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
John 16:13 says, "Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come.”
Matthew 12:31 is one of the most terrifying passages of scripture in all of the Bible. Jesus said, "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men:"
There is a sin that can never, never, never, never, ever be forgiven and that is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Jesus says you can blaspheme Him and be forgiven. But, you can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit and be forgiven.
What is the difference? Is the Holy Spirit superior to Jesus? Of course not. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-etemal. But, there's a difference in ministry. The ministry of Jesus is the ministry of redemption. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is the ministry
of revelation. It is the Holy Spirit of God that turns the light on.
Could the unpardonable sin be the blaspheme of an impersonal force? That does not sit right in the context of these passages, does it?
In Ephesians 4:30, the apostle Paul says, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Paul is talking to Christians, to those who have already been saved. The word "grieve" is a love word. You can only grieve a person that loves you. Your neighbor's children will vex you. Your own children will grieve you. Do you see the difference? How could a Christian sin against an impersonal force?
The Holy Spirit may be stubbornly resisted. He may be sinfully grieved. He may be shamefully quenched.
We have a dear friend. He is the Holy Spirit. He is to us what Jesus Christ was to the disciples when they were here on earth. And, we are to be to Him what the disciples were to Jesus. He is our Best Friend!
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3316
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Matthew 12:31 is one of the most terrifying passages of scripture in all of the Bible. Jesus said, "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men:"
There is a sin that can never, never, never, never, ever be forgiven and that is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Jesus says you can blaspheme Him and be forgiven. But, you can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit and be forgiven |
Ron, why do you think there is no mention of the Father here? Given the seriousness of Jesus' comment, it seems like a big omission to me. 
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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mijt1
Big Hamster
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 98
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It is interesting that in your post and in JW information the Holy Spirit of God is approached as an "it". What is so interesting about this is this observation is ONLY held by JW's. No other biblical reference or church doctrine hold this position. |
Well that does not surprise me. There are many beliefs held only by JW's. As far as I know only JW's believe that the last days of this system began in 1914. Only JW's believe that true worship was to be restored during the last days.
| Quote: | | Why is that? Perhaps it is because this is yet again another example of false teaching creeping into the church and teachers building up themselves and not our Lord Jesus. |
How have the churches of christendom built up our lord Jesus? Have you any idea how many people despise religion because of all that has been done in its name throughout history?
Christendom is no less to blame thany any other religion. How many people have been murdered by so called christians since Jesus and the apostles left this earth.
Christian churches have backed slavery and wars and christians have killed christians all over the world.
Charles Russell was the first president of the watchtower society. Just in case you think he is thought of as some kind of prophet by us, well he is not. I cant remember the last time his name was mentioned at any of our meetings. We do believe he was being used by God and yes he made mistakes. He was not suddenly given all knowing knowledge by God in some blinding flash just the same as neither were first century christians. First century christians underwent refinement and so did JW's In their early history they celebrated christmas and birthdays and used the symbol of the cross. Other beliefs also changed. Nevertheless this group of which Russell was the first president, despite their mistakes went on to be come a worldwide united brotherhood. They took seriously the command to preach the good newsof the kingdom( something which Jesus also gave as a sign for the last days)
During two world wars while christians were killing eachother and others. JW's were obeying the command of Jesus that his disciples have love among themselves and were being thrown into prison and concentration camps for refusing to go to war and kill anyone let alone eachother. JW's have never taken part in war but thousands have been murdered by members of your christian churches. A very large number were hacked to death in Rwanda, many while trying to protect eachother no matter which of the opposing tribes they were from.
In many countries where JW's are persecuted it is with the backing of christendoms clergy.
JW 's do everything they can to build up the name of our lord Jesus. They may not believe he is God but they do believe salvation is only possible through him.Every single day all throughout the earth JW's are preaching the good news of God's kingdom and that message is exactly the same no matter what country you live in and no matter what language you speak.
The churches have not built up the name of Jesus, they have heaped shame and reproach on his name for the last two thousand years.
To imply that JW's are not interested in building up the name of Jesus is to put it mildly, not true.
Everything our organization does and even its very existance is centred on preaching the good news just as Jesus commanded.
You are obviously an inteligent man Ron, it shows in your posts. I don't mean that to be patronizing. You may know your bible well and you may know the meaning of far more greek words than I do. But I belong to a worldwide loving united organization that has kept Jesus commandments in stark contrast to christendoms churches and thats good enough for me.
| Quote: | | Are we to believe that this “truth” was hidden from the writers of God’s Word? Hidden from God’s people until revealed through Charles Taze Russell a mere 150 years ago? That does not stand up to the test of Scripture at all |
I do believe the bible indicates that true worship would be restored in the last days but thats another subject. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3316
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:11 am Post subject: |
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I have some knowledge of the JW organization and if people were reasonable, they would understand that the common people in this organization that believe and practice bible truths are our brothers and sisters - as are people in other organizations who also do the same. Why do people hate or dislike JW's. The fault lies on both sides.
I know JW's like to believe they are persecuted because they are God's only chosen people, but the truth is, it is this very arrogance which makes them a target and it brings out the worst in other people.
Having seen both sides of the fence, I think I'm in a fair position to comment on it. I'm not disfellowshipped, so you needn't fear speaking to me, but having experienced life in the organization, it has soured me against organized religion for life. Perhaps mijt1, you have never been exposed to the corrupt side of this organization, but it exists and it exists among those of high rank.
This is not to say that all JW's are corrupt and this is the mistake people make. God's people exist in all walks of life and we recognize them by their adherence to Jesus' commandments. That places you squarely in the wrong in thinking people have to belong to your church in order to be saved. Not only that, but this attitude is a stumbling block to others by its contentious nature.
Let me tell you a story. I had a JW couple calling regularly at my door. I always welcomed them and told them I was delighted to discuss the bible with them. One day, I told them I had some experience with their organization, but did not tell them any details. They have never called again. Certainly, I cannot say with any assurity why, but I suspect they imagine I am disfellowshipped and fear speaking with me although I had given them no cause.
They judged me falsely and there is certainly no forgiveness on their part. I do not judge them in return, but it only adds to my conviction how in some ways the congregations are being misled as happens in all religious organizations.
There are other things JW's support that don't adhere to bible principles, but this is getting too lengthy. Don't get me wrong, I am not condemning everyone in this organization, I am only saying they are fallible like everyone else and have the devil among them like everyone else.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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mijt1
Big Hamster
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 98
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Mojo wrote | Quote: | | I know JW's like to believe they are persecuted because they are God's only chosen people, but the truth is, it is this very arrogance which makes them a target and it brings out the worst in other people. |
So JW's say they are god's chosen people because they dont kill or take part in war and so called christians say " For such arrogance we shall persecute and murder you"
JW's are not persecuted because of their arrogance they are persecuted because of their political neutrality. All religions and all minorites suffer persecution at some time or other.
During the troubles in the former Yugoslavia I think I am right in saying it was the Muslims that suffered the most at the hands of christians. In other parts of the world Muslims kill Christians and christians kill christians. Of course I am not saying every single christian or every single Muslim takes part in killing.
Jehovahs witneeses have often been targets because of their refusal to swear alegience to the ruling political party. Even though they are no threat to them and will obey the laws of the land they are seen as a threat and persecuted. The churches who take exception to the preaching work of JW's take advantage of the situation and persecute them also. In African lands and Eastern Europe Mobs lead by their clergy have disrupted JW meetings and beaten and sometimes killed people. Right now JW's are suffering extreme persecution by the orthodox church in Georgia.
The difference is that JW's recognising that Jesus said his disciples would be persecuted do not seek retribution. In many parts of the world religious hatred has festered for decades because atrocity is met with counter atrocity and so on.
If people think it's arrogant for JW's to say they have the truth then so be it. But as I have explaned before, JW's do care about people. It is not a natural thing nor an easy thing to go knocking on doors preaching to people knowing the vast majority are not the least bit interested, not just in what we have to say but in religion in general. Nevertheless our whole organization is geared towards preaching the good news of the kingdom just as Jesus commanded before the end of this system comes.
| Quote: |
Perhaps mijt1, you have never been exposed to the corrupt side of this organization, but it exists and it exists among those of high rank. This is not to say that all JW's are corrupt and this is the mistake people make |
No Mojo I have never been exposed to any corruption and I don't personally know anyone who has. However I dont doubt for one second that the organization has problems. We sometimes have had problems in my own congregation, nothing major and they have always been sorted in the end. It's an imperfect organization and its people are imperfect just as God's people have always been imperfect. But despite any problems the organization is still united.
By far the vast majority of Jehovahs witnesses are a close brotherhood and as we get nearer to the end of this system they are getting closer. I don't believe for a second this would be possible without God's blessing.
| Quote: | | God's people exist in all walks of life |
I do believe that God's people exist in all walks of life. Who does God tell to get out of Babylon the great in Revelation 18:4
4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.
They are not JW's but he calls them his people. I do believe that god will have gathered his people together before the end of this system. I dont believe that god wants his people scattered everywhere all believing different things. The nation of israel was organized for worshiping him and so were first century christians.
| Quote: | | and we recognize them by their adherence to Jesus' commandments. |
I couldn't agree more, and what were Jesus commandments? That his followers have love among themselves. And he wasn't talking about general kindness but a real love that unites and bonds his followers no matter what race they are.
Also he commanded that his disciples preach the good news of the kingdom. Sure there are many christian missionaries but the message being preached would have to be the same all over the world and it would have to be a message that unites people in love and stops hatred and division.
| Quote: | | Not only that, but this attitude is a stumbling block to others by its contentious nature |
More people are stumbled by the conduct of religion than the attitude of JW's.
Often while preaching people tell me that they are not interested and the sooner we get rid of religion the better. Sometimes when they give me a chance to explain that we are no part of christendom and no part of the troubles caused by religion they are more willing to listen and accept our magazines. In some countries such as the UK where I am our growth is a bit slow at the moment. In other countries paticuarly Catholic countries the growth is much faster. Many new JW's are ex Catholic or other church members dissilusioned with their church and its divisions.
| Quote: | | Don't get me wrong, I am not condemning everyone in this organization, I am only saying they are fallible like everyone else and have the devil among them like everyone else. |
Yes they are fallible like everyone else. But for the reasons I have given above there is still a big difference.
Forgive my spelling Mojo I dont have spell checker and sadly I spent my School English lessons chucking paper planes around the classroom. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3316
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | JW's are not persecuted because of their arrogance they are persecuted because of their political neutrality. All religions and all minorites suffer persecution at some time or other. |
sorry mijt1, I actually wasn't talking about this kind of persecution. I was talking about the blind distrust and dislike people hold for JW's as an organization in general. The kind you run across everyday. As to political persecution, many individuals and groups of people have been persecuted for many reasons. Usually because they are in the way of some petty tyrant achieving his goal. Groups that band together for any reason or don't have the skin colour of the day are prime targets. Also persecution takes many forms. Look at what France is doing right now.
| Quote: | | The difference is that JW's recognising that Jesus said his disciples would be persecuted do not seek retribution. In many parts of the world religious hatred has festered for decades because atrocity is met with counter atrocity and so on. |
No argument here, but you assume one has to be a JW to distinguish the wheat from the chaff.
| Quote: | | If people think it's arrogant for JW's to say they have the truth then so be it. But as I have explaned before, JW's do care about people. It is not a natural thing nor an easy thing to go knocking on doors preaching to people knowing the vast majority are not the least bit interested, not just in what we have to say but in religion in general. Nevertheless our whole organization is geared towards preaching the good news of the kingdom just as Jesus commanded before the end of this system comes. |
I'm not saying it's arrogant to say you have the truth. I'm saying it's arrogant to say you are the only ones who have the truth. What did Jesus say: Matt 12: 48
[48] "But he answered and said unto him, Behold thy mother and thy brethern stand without, desiring to speak with thee. [49] And he stretched forth his hands toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethern! [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."
As to preaching at doors and standing on street corners, how does this bring glory to God when for the most part it just alienates people. Your right, it doesn't come naturally; I did it and I hated it. I imagine I'm not the only one who felt this way. Do people do it because they love the Lord or do they do it because it is expected of them? This would fall in the same category of the Jews following ordinances because it is expected. Just as it is expected to attend meetings and bible studies and if you don't it is frowned upon. Your not a good JW.
| Quote: | | They are not JW's but he calls them his people. I do believe that god will have gathered his people together before the end of this system. I dont believe that god wants his people scattered everywhere all believing different things. The nation of israel was organized for worshiping him and so were first century christians |
Are the people on this board then your brothers and sisters? Or must we be gathered together under the name of Jehovah's witnesses?
You see, to me, the majority of people on this board are a church and are united and are gathered together. Just because we do not agree on every detail of interpretation, does not mean we are not united in seeking and loving God and are the willing sheep of Jesus' pasture. We are your brothers and sisters. If you were to put 10 JW's in a room and ask them to arrive a united interpretation concerning the details (not an overall general belief, but an interpretation of details) of a particular topic, you would get 10 different answers. That's all we do - discuss the details. All we who professes belief and faith in God and Jesus are united in serving God.
I would never for a moment suggest it is a bad thing to be a JW like some do, but I would suggest that fellowship with others of like mind who are not JW's should not be considered the enemy. It seems to me, that those people who stopped calling at my door feared me. Can you imagine? Me - a pussycat.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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mijt1
Big Hamster
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 98
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Mojo wrote | Quote: | | No argument here, but you assume one has to be a JW to distinguish the wheat from the chaff. |
No you dont have to be a JW to distinguish the wheat from the chaff. Any christian should be able to.
| Quote: | | As to preaching at doors and standing on street corners, how does this bring glory to God |
Well why did first century christians do it? why was the last thing Jesus said to his disciples "Go make disciples of people of all the nations"
Romans 10:14 However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth?
Acts 5:42 And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.
| Quote: | | Your right, it doesn't come naturally; I did it and I hated it. I imagine I'm not the only one who felt this way. Do people do it because they love the Lord or do they do it because it is expected of them? |
You would be wrong to assume JW's hate preaching no matter how difficult they find it.
Yes it is expected of them, we believe every christian has the obligation to preach.
1 Corinthians 9:16 If, now, I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me. Really, woe is me if I did not declare the good news
We do it because we love our god Jehovah. Our preaching work would not have progressed to the extent that it has if it was not done out of love. It is not required that JW's take only part time work so they can preach full time but hundereds of thousands do it anyway. I dont find it easy but I certainly dont hate it.
| Quote: | | All we who professes belief and faith in God and Jesus are united in serving God. |
Is that all it takes? The IRA terrorist may attend church every sunday, he may proffess faith in God and Jesus, is he united with you in serving God?
Countless atrocities have been commited by christians who proffess Jesus as their saviour, are they united with you in serving God. Does serving God simply mean believing in him?
I have a brother in law who says he is a born again Christian. Some years ago he got friendly with a born again christian who invited him to his house. This guy spoke to my brother in law for a while then prayed for him and told him he was saved. My brother in law told me that afterwards he felt wonderful. However, he has never been to church, never speaks to anyone else about it. He is still very agressive and often gets into arguments because of his agression. He is not honest in his buisness dealings and he is quite racist.
He believes that no matter what wrong he does now or in the future he is still saved. That one day he will go to heaven to be with Jesus and will even be higher than the angels.
He believes in Jesus, would you say he is serving God?
I am not likening people on this board to my brother in law or terrorists, I just wonder what you consider to be serving God and how far you extend unity to those proffessing faith in Jesus. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3316
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:11 am Post subject: |
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I was speaking specifically about the unity on this board, but your right, I don't know these people personally and for all I know they could be lying, cheating and stealing. I can only know them by what I have learned of them here through their posts.
By the same token, you can only know the people you have direct contact with in your organization, but you can only know them by surface appearances the same as I. I knew many JW who professed one thing and did the other. In fact, (and this is hearsay from someone who was still a JW) there was a time when the whole of Southern Ontario was scourged because of the corruption.
The point is, people are people. There are good ones and bad ones in any organization where people hold positions of power and we can never really know what goes on behind closed doors.
My point about the preaching is really about the gifts God gives us. Some are called to preach and others have different gifts. I don't think people should have to prove their faith through being required to put in X amount of hours or risk being viewed as weak in their faith and standing in the congregation.
| Quote: | You would be wrong to assume JW's hate preaching no matter how difficult they find it.
Yes it is expected of them, we believe every christian has the obligation to preach. |
Is this not man's judgement? Again I liken this to Jewish ordinances. You must do it because it is expected of you if you want to be a JW.
There is a judgement that goes on and you can't tell me any differently because my family was subjected to it. I cannot tell you the many years of grief this caused. But I don't hold a grudge, nor am I biased against the many good people doing good work. What I am, is realistic about people and their failings.
I was a teenager when my family were witnesses and I could never fully embrace it because of the hypocracy that was going on in my peer group. What went on when the parents weren't watching was no different than any teenager in the outside world. This was my view. From the adults view (my mother tells me) she could not understand why the leaders preached one thing and did another. However, she persevered, giving people the benefit of the doubt because she did believe this organization was the answer and that people were trying their best to walk with God. She believed that right up until it came back to bite her. And it came back to bite her from the top down.
Jesus tells us how to recognize our neighbours in the parable of the good samaritan and yet you discourage fellowship with these people. Timothy was circumcised although it mattered not in terms of salvation in order to gain the Jews and yet would you attend a birthday party or a Christmas event in order to gain those people?
Jesus did not tell people to invite persecution by bringing attention to themselves. In fact, he often told people not to broadcast what they had seen and heard. the gospel was to be preached in a discretionary manner so that people would survive to tell the tale. What good is a dead preacher?
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2072
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the Holy Spirit,
True it is often times personified but there are also times where the spirit is called "it".Far too impersonal for someone who is suppose to be God. John 1:32 John also bore witness, saying: “I viewed the spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon him.
Also acts 11:15 But when I started to speak, the holy spirit fell upon them just as it did also upon us in [the] beginning
The Bible also shows it to be something God possesses.The Bible writers say "Your spirit".God says "My Spirit".
Acts 2:14 But Peter stood up with the eleven and raised his voice and made this utterance to them: “Men of Ju·de´a and all YOU inhabitants of Jerusalem, let this be known to YOU and give ear to my sayings. 15 These [people] are, in fact, not drunk, as YOU suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. 16 On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel, 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams; 18 and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy
The spirit comes from God ,it is the power of God but it is not in itself God.Notice how it can be poured out.Not something done of a person.
God can use this power to do anything,to teach,to cause people to remember things,to motivate people,and to inspire the Bible writers and the prophets to speak God's words...
Regarding Matt 12:31-32 The context shows Jesus cast a demon out of a man and the Pharisees were saying Jesus was able to do this because he was in league with Satan.In reality it was Holy Spirit that enabled Jesus to preform this miracle,and that Holy Spirit is what proved that Jesus had God's backing. That is why you can speak against the Son and it could be forgiven you but you cannot speak against the Holy Spirit that irrefutably PROVED Jesus had God's approval.Saying Jesus preformed these miracles by means of Satan was blasphemy against that proof God sent of Jesus divine approval.
Hope this helps.
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Agape,
TBax |
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