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jdwtx2005 · Tadpole Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 28

Thunder,

Whereas there are numerous scriptures and passages within the Bible that make it crystal clear that salvation is based on the GOSPEL (i.e., the death, burial, and resurrection of CHRIST), plus nothing, minus nothing (See - Jn 3:14,16,17,36 & 5:24 & 6:40,47 & Acts 16:31 & Rom 10:9-13), there are only seven verses in the N.T. that “appear” to indicate that salvation is dependent upon baptism. A simple examination of these verses, however, will prove that baptism has nothing to do with the GOSPEL that saves:

1) Mark 16:16 - It should be noted that in the second half of this verse the only basis for condemnation is a refusal to believe (See - Jn 3:18). Therefore the only basis for salvation is belief, not baptism plus belief. Take for example a man that desires to travel to Chicago by train.

“He that gets on the train (i.e., believeth) and sits down (i.e., is baptized) gets to Chicago (i.e., is saved), but he that does not get on the train (i.e., believeth not) does not get to his desired destination called Chicago (i.e., is damned).”
Belief in the Gospel of CHRIST ( Rom 1:16 & Eph 1:13 & I Cor 15:1-4), not baptism, is the matter that settles salvation. The Gospel is not CHRIST’S death, burial, and resurrection plus good works, or plus church membership, or plus baptism. Paul said in I Corinthians 1:17, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel:” It’s not JESUS plus - its JESUS only!

2) Acts 2:38 - "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the HOLY GHOST."

The Greek word translated “for” is the indefinite preposition “eis.” It means “pointing to,” not “in order that.” The people in Acts 2:38 were baptized “pointing to” the fact that they had already been saved, not “in order that” they might be saved (i.e., have remission of sins).
Take for example a man that is in jail “for” murder. Is the man in jail “in order that” he might murder or is he in jail “pointing to” the fact that he had already murdered? The question answers itself! While we should preach that all men are commanded to repent and be baptized, adding any other requirement to salvation by grace becomes “works” in disguise.

3) I Peter 3:20,21 - "20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the 21days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein 22few, that is, eight souls were saved by water..."

Interestingly enough, Noah and his family were not saved by getting into the water but by staying out of the water. The ark (i.e., a picture of CHRIST) is what saved Noah and his family, not the water.

4) Mark 1:4 - According to Acts 19:3,4, the “baptism of repentance” is the proclaiming of the Gospel, not the performance of a rite (See - Acts 10:37 & 13:23,24).

5) Acts 22:11-16 -
According to Acts 22:13, Saul (i.e., Paul) was already saved and considered a brother in CHRIST long before he was ever baptized. Acts 9:17,18 confirms this truth. Calling on the name of the LORD JESUS is what washes away sin and saves a person (See - Acts 10:43 & Rom 10:13 & I Cor 6:11), not baptism. Ananias exhorted Paul to be baptized “in token of” the washing away of his sins, not “in order to” wash away his sins. Again, baptism has no saving merit whatsoever. Only the blood (See - Lev 17:11) of CHRIST washes away sin and saves a person (See - Acts 20:28 & Rom 3:25 & Eph 1:7 & Heb 10:19,20 & Rev 1:5)!

22:16: "And now why tarriest thou? ARISE, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the LORD. "
The word "arise" here in the original Greek is the past participle of the word and should be translated as young Literal transaltion does as "HAVING ARISEN". This means salvation (RISING) happens before baptism.

6) John 3:1-6 - There are some religions that would have you to believe that the water in verse 5 is speaking of baptism and therefore baptism is a part of salvation. However, there are four irrefutable reasons why the phrase “born of water” in John 3:5 cannot mean baptism. The water in verse 5 refers to the washing of the water of God’s Word (See - Eph 5:26).

7) Titus 3:5 - According to John 15:3 and Ephesians 5:26, the washing of regeneration here in verse 5 refers to the Word of God, not baptism (See - I Pet 1:23). According to the Bible, it takes a combination of the HOLY SPIRIT (i.e., the Wind) and the Word of God to produce the new birth in a person (See - Ezk 37:1-10 & Jn 1:13 & II Thess 2:13 & Titus 3:5 & Jms 1:18 & I Pet 1:22).

Scripture does not and cannot contradict scripture.

In the love of Christ,
jdwtx2005 Very Happy

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

Again ... you are arguing to be arguing.

The bible says," He that believes and is baptised shall be saved." Mark 16:16

Why argue a written text supported by water baptism throughout the NT?

Why defy simple instructions requiring obedience?

Oh, that's it, obedience! That's the problem.

Some people, even some who say they are christian and say they are born again refuse to submit to simple instructions as an act of human rebellion.

" Just because the bible says it, Jesus did it, Apostles preached it, those are not good enough reasons for me to obey it." signed, an obedient believer and follower of Jesus Christ ... WRONG!!!

thunder
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RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7003 Location: USA

I think jdwtx2005 made an extremely valid point, scripturally supported as well.

Thunder, you are preaching a Gospel +, plain and simple, which is contrary to the Gospel of Christ, the Good news of salvation by Grace through faith, by no work of our own.
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jdwtx2005 · Tadpole Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 28

Thunder,
If I may be a little picky about the verse Mark 16:16.
It does not mention WATER baptism here specifically. I could easily mean baptized of the spirit. Which is what I believe.

Remember scripture cannot contradict scripture. If one's interpretation causes a contradiction in the scriptures, one should rethink their position on that interpretation.

Be always and forever willing to do this. Seek only truth, even if it is different than current beliefs. This is what I attempt to do. Hopefully I am not deceiving myself.

Laughing

emoticons are cool!!!

RND · Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Why do you believe ...

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2072

RND,

Hi, Very Happy

Pete · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:15 am Post subject:

RND · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject:

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2072

RND,

Hi, Very Happy

RND · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:34 am Post subject:

[quote="TBax"]RND,

Hi, Very Happy

daviddale3 · Kitten Joined: 02 Aug 2006 Posts: 146 Location: georgia

jdwtx2005;

RND · Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:21 am Post subject:

daviddale3 very good post.

I have oftened thought, and as a result, firmly believe that water baptisim by immersion is an essential part in 'signifying' our willingness to be obedient to Jesus Christ, and that the baptism of Jesus Christ by John the Baptist was performed for those, who for one reason or another, could could be baptized.

I expect to see the 'thief on the cross' in Heaven after the resurrection. I look forward to meeting him, speaking with him, and getting to know this brother in Christ.

He was never baptized, yet I firmly believe he will be resurrected.

I am quite comfortable with the notion that just as the very blood of Jesus Christ cleanses and heals people from all unrighteousness, so too does His baptism work for those who were never, nor ever could, be baptized.
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daviddale3 · Kitten Joined: 02 Aug 2006 Posts: 146 Location: georgia

jdwtx2005

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject:

I see baptism as both a physical demonstration of that which is taking place on the inside.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

I believe that the washing and being baptised in the water refers to the living water which Jesus himself proclaimed to be the possesor of.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

So by preaching the gospel and spreading the word of faith which comes from Jesus himself, we are baptised into this living water of the word and it also rushes out of us baptising those around us with the living water which is the word of God.

John himself says:

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Maybe John's baptism of water was a prelude to what was coming. That those who believe are baptised by the Holy Spirit which is the word of God shed on us. And that we become emersed in Him and in His word as though we were being emersed in the river Jordan.

In acts 11:15 it is the Holy Ghost which falls on them, as if being flooded or poured on by water.
Could be why there are so many different ways of being baptised. Some are dunked, some are sprinkled...
And I believe these are signs that we use to witness to others what is happening inside where they can't see.

I don't know if actual water baptism saves, I lean more towards the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God that baptises us.

I'm not condemning or condoning either way. God gives signs for everything. Most of the time signs are given for those things which are not yet manifest but will be at some later time. Maybe when everyone is baptised into the Word of God then water baptism won't be needed anymore. The same way animal sacrifices aren't needed anymore, because the truth of the sacrifices for sin was manifested in Jesus himself. And the truth of baptism is still yet to be manifested in us...

It's an interesting topic, that's for sure.

God Bless
Lone
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Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

daviddale3 · Kitten Joined: 02 Aug 2006 Posts: 146 Location: georgia

lone-traveler;

I understand what you are saying, yet do not agree. As we examine the examples of conversion in the book of Acts, especially in Acts 8, your view is not what we see. We see a group of people that were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ who had not recieved the Holy Ghost. It was only untill the apostles came to them and laid their hands upon them that they recieved such. Also, with the eunch, Phillip preached unto him Jesus. It is obvious that at some point in preaching Jesus that Phillip mentioned to him water baptism since he asked, here is water what doth hinder me to be baptized. Phillip and the eunch both went into the water and he was baptized.

These two acounts do not square with your explanation.