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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Some here have advocated that in order to be "accepting" of homosexual Christians one must necessarily accept same sex marriages, condone homosexual sexual activity and the like.
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The Mainline churches are moving in this direction. A church can choose to be a church of laws or a church of love. The Mainline are moving toward the latter, while the PRRs are mired in the former.
| Quote: | | While that may sound loving and caring, it does not take into account that the Church is under no obligation, in fact it is commanded not to, accept the continuous commission of known sin in their body. |
There is no logical basis whatsoever to believe doing such is thus.
| Quote: | | We would not be required, nor expected to accept pedphiles |
The PRRs already do and the following news item shows:
Oregon Anti-Gay Leader Accused Of Sex Abuse
by 365Gay.com Newscenter Staff
Posted: October 10, 2005 5:00 pm ET
(Portland, Oregon) The Portland leader of the Christian Coalition is facing sex abuse allegations after three female members of his family told police that he molested them.
Multnomah County District Attorney Michael Schrunk said officials are investigating the complaints against Lou Beres, the longtime chairman of the Coalition.
The three women - now adults - allege they were abused by Beres as preteens. Their families called the child abuse hot line last month, after the three openly discussed the alleged abuse for the first time.
"I was molested," one of the women, now in her 50s, told The Oregonian newspaper. "I was victimized and I've suffered all my life for it. I'm still afraid to be in the same room with him."
Only one of the three cases appears to fall under Oregon's statute of limitations on sex abuse, which expires after six years. Authorities said that case involves a young woman who was allegedly abused by Beres when she was in elementary school.
Beres, 70, denies the allegations. He blamed "personal and political enemies" for the complaint, but family members are supporting the women's claims.
Last year the Coalition took Multnomah County to court after it began issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples. (story)
Under Beres' leadership the Coalition then sought to force a recall vote for two Multnomah County commissioners who approved the issuing of marriage licenses to same-sex couples. The attempt later failed. (story)
Beres also was one of the main proponents of an amendment to the Oregon constitution to ban same-sex marriage.
This year the coalition led the attack on legislation that would have permitted civil unions.
Randall Terry and about every politician to get PRR juice.
| Quote: | | liars, theives, cheats |
Ralph Reed, Tom Delay etc. ad infinitum...
| Quote: | | if they continued to openly and knowingly engage in their sin |
They do. It is excusable to the apostles of hatred, however. Just business as usual.
| Quote: | | nor should we be expected to accept those who openly and knowing engage in homosexual sex. |
The attempted linkage of such with real sins is most unfortunate, revealing the deeply held prejudices of the writer. Shame.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6999
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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What's a PRR? and what has anything you posted have to do with the points I made?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | What's a PRR? and what has anything you posted have to do with the points I made? |
PRR=Political Religious Right.
Politicians with PRR juice documented in adultery include Henry Hyde, Helen Chenoweth, Dan Burton, Tim Hutchinson, and many more.
Their sin is excused by the corrupt Pharisees in these organizations while furthering their agenda. It is mot morality they are after, it is dominance.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6999
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | PRR=Political Religious Right. |
What has that to do with me?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | PRR=Political Religious Right. |
What has that to do with me? |
Look in the mirror; that's what you is.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6999
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:43 am Post subject: |
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You really don't know anything about me, yet you ASSume soooooo much!
It is amusing, in a sad sort of way, that you speak so much of love and compassion and accuse me of being meanspirited and hardhearted, when in fact you have compartmentalized me into a vision of what you wish me to be in order to direct your misplaced antipathy.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
You really don't know anything about me, yet you ASSume soooooo much!
It is amusing, in a sad sort of way, that you speak so much of love and compassion and accuse me of being meanspirited and hardhearted, when in fact you have compartmentalized me into a vision of what you wish me to be in order to direct your misplaced antipathy. |
Whatever. As long as you continue to spew your bile I'll be here to contradict you.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6999
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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You cannot contradict me because you do not address what I actually post. You accuse falsely, you assume things about me that you do not or cannot know and attack me based on those assumptions.
To contradict a person you actually have to address what they have said.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 656
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Bethlehem's Position on Homosexuality |
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Since there seems to be such bickering back & forth between the two of you - DBB & RevJP - I thought I'd get back to the first post & respond.
| RevJP wrote: |
1. We believe that heterosexuality is God's revealed will for humankind and that, since God is loving, a chaste and faithful expression of this orientation (whether in singleness or in marriage) is the ideal to which God calls all people.
2. We believe that a homosexual orientation is a result of the fall of humanity into a sinful condition that pervades every person. Whatever biological or familial roots of homosexuality may be discovered, we do not believe that these would sanction or excuse homosexual behavior, though they would deepen our compassion and patience for those who are struggling to be free from sexual temptations.
3. We believe there is hope for the person with a homosexual orientation and that Jesus Christ offers a healing alternative in which the power of sin is broken and the person is freed to know and experience his or her true identity in Christ and in the fellowship of his Church.
4. We believe that this freedom is attained through a process which includes recognizing homosexual behavior as sin, renouncing the practice of homosexual behavior, rediscovering healthy, non-erotic friendships with people of the same sex, embracing a moral sexual lifestyle, and in the age to come, rising from the dead with a new body free from every sinful impulse. This process parallels the similar process of sanctification needed in dealing with heterosexual temptations as well. We believe that this freedom comes through faith in Jesus Christ, by the power of his Spirit.
5. We believe that all persons have been created in the image of God and should be accorded human dignity. We believe therefore that hateful, fearful, unconcerned harassment of persons with a homosexual orientation should be repudiated. We believe that respect for persons with a homosexual orientation involves honest, reasoned, nonviolent sharing of facts concerning the immorality and liability of homosexual behavior. On the other hand, endorsing behavior which the Bible disapproves endangers persons and dishonors God.
6. We believe that Christian churches should reach out in love and truth to minister to people touched by homosexuality, and that those who contend Biblically against their own sexual temptation should be patiently assisted in their battle, not ostracized or disdained. However, the more prominent a leadership role or modeling role a person holds in a church or institution of the Conference, the higher will be the expectations for God's ideal of sexual obedience and wholeness. We affirm that both heterosexual and homosexual persons should find help in the church to engage in the Biblical battle against all improper sexual thoughts and behaviors.
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1 - God's revealed will for humankind is to place Him above anything or anyone else. For Him to be our #1 priority.
2 - While I agree that every person is born into sin, do you think that homosexual desires are placed as a temptation in a young child's mind much like the temptation to steal a pack of gum or smoke some weed w/friends?
3 - This statement can be kind of confusing at first glance. That last part makes it sound like all homosexuals are confused about their identity. The lesbians/gays I know know perfectly well who they are as people, whether they're a male or a female.
4 - I find fault with this reasoning. Not all relationships that homosexuals have are erotic. Usually homosexuals fall in love w/ONE person, same as heterosexuals. They usually fall in love BEFORE they have sex & usually love based on the way someone makes them feel inside, not on how good they are in bed or if they're aroused by them. It usually starts as a friendship FIRST.
5 - I do believe there is such a thing as sitting down w/someone lovingly & telling them that what they're doing in their life is sinful & trying to help them overcome it. Sitting there telling an adulterer that what they're doing is ok is harmful for example. I just don't see how loving someone of the same gender is sinful (please take sex out of the equation). Think of it on the same field as heterosexual love. In a proper hetero relationship, isn't it healthy to fall in love first & then sex later? Same would hold true for homosexual love.
6 - So what happens when you find out the pastor of the church had an affair on his wife?
Now, can you two stop bickering & just agree to disagree? B/C you can't seem to talk about this rationally w/o insulting each other. Get into your neutral corners - please! 
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5282
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Call me dumb. What does "D/C" mean?
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Much Love Nobby
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6999
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Evee wrote: | | I just don't see how loving someone of the same gender is sinful (please take sex out of the equation). |
This is the point entirely Evee. It is not about love, it is about sex. The entire 'equation' I have been discussing is about sex.
If you care to relook at my posts you will see that I have not, nor do I ever consider orientation a factor - sexual sin is just that whether it be a hetrosexual engaging in sexual sin or a homosexual engaging in sexual sin. It just happens that scripture states that sex between two men or two women is a sin. Re-read point number 2.
| Quote: | | Not all relationships that homosexuals have are erotic |
This is not what this position paper says, nor I for that matter. The paper does however encourage renouncing the practice of homosexual behavior, rediscovering healthy, non-erotic friendships with people of the same sex, embracing a moral sexual lifestyle, it does not say, nor intimate that a gay man only hangs out with other guys for sex.
| Quote: | | do you think that homosexual desires are placed as a temptation in a young child's mind much like the temptation to steal a pack of gum or smoke some weed w/friends? |
No I don't think this, nor have I even suggested such. I have stated, and I believe that while homosexuality may be 'natural' (by physiology or environment) it does not excuse homosexual behavior (sex). I've stated before that some may be genetically inclined to anger or violence but that does not excuse their violent behavior or lashing out in anger.
I certainly don't think God places temptation in a childs mind, and while satan may it is really irrelevant, resisting temptation is the issue and filling that God sized hole in ones heart, with Christ is the key to being able to resist said temptation, regardless of what it is.
| Quote: | | So what happens when you find out the pastor of the church had an affair on his wife? |
Hmmm... I don't know. What would normally happen when a congregation leader commits known sin? What happens when he or she commits said sin and does not repent, or continues to commit said sin? Biblically that person should be removed from the congregation. Based of course on the contiunal engagement in said known sin and not on the fact that he/she had committed a sin before.
| Quote: | | Now, can you two stop bickering & just agree to disagree? B/C you can't seem to talk about this rationally w/o insulting each other. Get into your neutral corners - please! |
I'm sorry to have upset you, I simply grow tired of being libeled and falsely accused.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | Call me dumb. What does "D/C" mean? [You meant b/c right?] |
In the contect of this post I'd take it to mean "because"
Normally, on the boards where I'm a bit more active, "b/c" means "Birth Control".
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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Evee
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Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 656
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Nobby - B/C = Because
RevJP (Rev, JP, RevJP, which do you prefer?  ),
I don't question your position. You've stated it quite clearly & like I said before, I admire you for standing so strong. And I get that you are taking a stand on sexual sin, whether it be heterosexual or homosexual. I totally get that. What bothers me I guess is the fact that if you feel that homosexuality is a state of being, & that they should remain celibate to resist those desires their whole life, I say that is a terrible shame b/c they are never given the chance to experience earthly love then like heterorsexuals can. You see, I don't believe it's possible for a homosexual to fall in love w/the opposite sex. Many have tried & they have always failed.
I have re-read point #2 & I still say it sounds like what I said. Maybe I'm just looking through a different colored lens.
It's funny you mention pre-disposition to anger & violence b/c my 13 year old son has had a problem w/his anger since he turned school-age. We took him to a therapist, enrolled him in behavioral classes, prayed like crazy & those anger tendencies do not come out like they did before. He has learned how to control his anger. Now, given that type of scenario since most homosexuals discover they're different by about 8-9 years old, what would you tell them about their feelings when they come to you & say that they feel different than the other boys or girls? What's wrong w/me?
RevJP wrote:Hmmm... I don't know. What would normally happen when a congregation leader commits known sin? What happens when he or she commits said sin and does not repent, or continues to commit said sin? Biblically that person should be removed from the congregation. Based of course on the contiunal engagement in said known sin and not on the fact that he/she had committed a sin before.
From my experience, most of the time nothing gets done about it when a member of a church or even the leader is actively engaging in sin. The last church I was a member of before this one had a couple in the congregation that was having an affair. Both families were members of this church but the spouses had no idea that their significant others were seeing each other behind their backs. Everyone else in the congregation knew it though. And the whispering would start as soon as both parties would enter the doors. I was just a little kid then but I can still remember it. Then, in the church I'm a member of now, the first day I got there, I noticed that this "affair" couple were members too. Apparantly they had divorced their spouses & got married to each other & left the other church to join this one. He just recently died after 25 or so years of being married. Well, I went on a tangent there, but it just really steamed me that this couple wasn't talked to or anything back then. Maybe they could have spared their families a whole lot of heartache. I guess what I'm saying is it's a good biblical concept to follow, but I think most churches don't do it.
| Quote: | | I'm sorry to have upset you, I simply grow tired of being libeled and falsely accused. |
I know exactly what you mean. I've had it happen to me quite a bit.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5282
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Evee, thank you for support to RevJP. He really needed my support & I wasn't there for him!  For that I'm truely Sorry.
Again Thinks,
Nobby
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Much Love Nobby
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6999
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | RevJP (Rev, JP, RevJP, which do you prefer? ), |
JP actually. Thank you for asking.
| Quote: | | I say that is a terrible shame b/c they are never given the chance to experience earthly love then like heterorsexuals can. You see, I don't believe it's possible for a homosexual to fall in love w/the opposite sex. |
Unfortunately, there are a lot of things in this world that are not as we would wish them to be. What of the homely gal or guy who never gets the chance to fall in love? What of the kids with MS or other some such diseases who never get to run or jump or play? It is a shame, I agree, but we cannot change what is sometimes just because it would make us feel better, and that is exactly what the world is doing.
The world has said "Yes, scripture says it is an abomination to God for two men or two women to have sex. But, it is a shame that two guys who don't have a natural affinity for women cannot engage in sex, so we will assert that if they are in a loving, committed relationship, then it is okay for them to have sex - regardless of what scripture says.
Not everyone falls in love, not everyone who falls in love gets married, and scripture is pretty clear that sex outside of the sanctified union of marriage is sinful - not everyone gets to have sex.
| Quote: | | Now, given that type of scenario since most homosexuals discover they're different by about 8-9 years old, what would you tell them about their feelings when they come to you & say that they feel different than the other boys or girls? What's wrong w/me? |
In my experience most 8-9 year olds don't come to anyone and talk about that kind of stuff, and I would tell them the same things I would tell the kid who comes to me and says he really like Judy, or Jane - Keep your hands off 
| Quote: | | From my experience, most of the time nothing gets done about it when a member of a church or even the leader is actively engaging in sin. |
This is why I said: Biblically that person should be removed from the congregation
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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