Eschatology discussion - Preterism/Dispensationalism

lone-traveler · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:25 am Post subject:

Gal:5:16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal:5:17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal:5:18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Heb:10:28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb:10:29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb:10:30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb:10:31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Star · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:56 am Post subject:

Star, Are you saying that people that don't believe by faith that Jesus is the Son of God, by confessing with their mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior, are they going to hell.

No Golf,

Whats it say? He who confesses the Jesus is Lord is saved by all He could not be justified of at all by the law. He is the Savior of all men specially those that believe as it is written. Your saved from the power of death (Sins rule) by the law, He redeemed from "curse" of the law. Sin had dominion over one under the law. His rule is by grace.

Golf writes,

Like I said before, one can either accept the true message of the Gospel or reject it.

Star writes,

You could indeed count yourself unworthy of what we all are unworthy of but its a gift.If you sniff at it and do despite unto his Spirit of Grace then you are indeed in some sore punishment for THAT. Its like calling the Lords table contemtptible and return to your own pot of fleshly works over His perfect work.

Golf writes,

The ones who overcome by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.

Star writes,

By Him only and by His blood only Golf, His life by His grace only.

Golf writes

Therefore believers are called overcomers. Do you agree?

Star replies,

Yepper I agree.

Golf writes,

Again a simple answer to the question about if all mankind will eventually go to the third heaven. Yes or no.

Star writes,

You don't GO anywhere you enter or are caught up into it. God will have mercy hon on who He will have mercy, He told you who is judged and condemned and its THOSE WHO ""DO THAT"" lol Your question is a trap that I condemn mankind by my tongue. He is ONE who condemneth (who came NOT to condemn but SAVE) and has risen for our justification, If God be FOR US """"WHO""" can be against us?

Rosie got a great point who are not sealed but the judges themselves. That little ol' member set on fire of hell itself (heart) set the whole course by nature lol Tormented IN THAT FLAME. Yes sir ree Golf, every idle WORD you will give an account for and indeed the tongue is a FIRE. Gnawing TONGUE in PAIN is one scary reprecussion on one self. COOL THAT TONGUE would be a nice treat if a man could indeed bridle it. But thats just the thing. The Birth of Christ is a Sign that would be SPOKEN AGAINST... Kinda a catch 22 now isn't it? lol Ever hear of their tongues consuming in their mouths, eyes and flesh? Thats a spiritual truth.

The tongue has the power of life or death and those that love it eat its fruit. He has "the keys of hell and death" so if you judge by your tongue (a FIRE) and not walk in obedience to His commandments death and hell already have their hold on you.. Death and hell deliver you UP by His life and power. Only when you walk in obedience to his commandments is He manifested to you. Death cannot hold life (Him) who abolished it.

Sorry blue letter bible is down cant give exact verses till its up, or even more then I'd like to. So hold on till its up, I see Him who will bring all things in heaven and on earth under one head. Every mouth confessing He is Lord. But not all who say Lord Lord will enter into His Kingdom but he who does the will of God, and Thats Him who comes to do the will of the Father. His power comes to us. Trying to be justified under the law your cut off from Christ (Grace and truth) and Christ becomes no effect unto you. The law is not of faith, thats why those outside the law were shown in them to have His laws in their heart.
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God love ya In Him Starlaa

Star · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:02 am Post subject:

Lone puts up...

Heb:10:29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done DESPITE UNTO HIS SPIRIT OF """GRACE"""?

Star replies,

AMEN AND AMEN LONE, this says it all.
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God love ya In Him Starlaa

golfjack · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:46 am Post subject: esthalogy

Maybe, you can agree with this: Let's use John 3:16-22 (most famous verse). This is my interpretation: GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD: God's love is not restricted to any one nation or to any spiritual elete. Verse 17: At His first coming, Jesus came so that the World through Him MIGHT be saved. When Jesus comes again, He will come in judgement upon those who refused His offer of Salvation. Verse 18: To BELIEVE is to receive life15, 16) and avoid judgement. A person who doesn't believe not only misses life, but is condemned already. Verse 19: Condemnation refers to the reason for judgement. The Light referred to Here is Jesus, the light of the worldd (1:7-9; 8:12; 9:5). Verse 20: People offer many excuses for not accepting Christ. Some cite the presence of hypocrites in the church. Others claim inability to believe some of the truths about Christ or the Gospel. These are merely attempts to conceal a heart in rebellion against God. The ultimate reason people do not come to Christ is that they don't want to. Verse 21: The one WHO DOES THE TRUTH (iJohn 1:5) is obviously already a believer because his or her deeds are done in God. Therefore, coming to the light is more than exercising faith. A person who comes to the light not only believes, but also openly identifies with the Light so that his or her works can be seen as things done in union with God.

I stil did not obtain an answer to my question. I perceive this as a copout.

May God bless, golfjack

Rosered · Alley Cat Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 179

Jack wrote;

istil did not obtain an answer to my question. I perceive this as a copout.

lol oh Jack your killin me , ha ! seems when you answer someone , and they totally ignore what you said and Still dont recive you , what else can you do ??

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

adios amigos , have a great Day
love in Him rose
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Jesus is the reward !

Star · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:27 pm Post subject:

Gods desire.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gods intent

John 3:17 For God sent NOT his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The law is not of faith, He came to redeem from the law, save them from their sins

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) Keywords dead in sins power of sin the law, redeems us from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Golf writes,

At His first coming, Jesus came so that the World through Him MIGHT be saved.

Star replies,

Wow, emphasizing the "might" as if He would fail? I guess you could say one could fail the GRACE of God. Losing out on great things and never tasting and seeing how good the Lord really is. So law worketh wrath thats how they would perceive Him.

1Corinth 15:3, Heb 7:27 Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and """unto them that look for him""" shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So yep, if you don't believe in His perfect works and shrink back into the law, that too is in there.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 3:4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

There are those rejecting His gift of Grace Yes.

Golf writes,

People offer many excuses for not accepting Christ.

Star replies,

Usually He is blasphamed those coming in His name bearing no real message of Good news. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

Goldjack,

A person who doesn't believe not only misses life, but is condemned already.

Star replies,

Yes under the ministry of condemnation you are condemned already.Christ came to redeem those under the ministry of condemnation= The law where the power of sin was.

2Corinth 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
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God love ya In Him Starlaa

Star · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:29 pm Post subject:

Golf jack writes,

Verse 19: Condemnation refers to the reason for judgement.

Star replies,

They stood judged under the condemnation brought in through the law. They were in death already and did not know it.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins. (it has no power to deliver you from your sins but is the very power of sin itself)

John 3:19 And this IS the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death (where they are presently) unto life (newness of His life)

Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Golf writes,

Some cite the presence of hypocrites in the church.

Star writes,

Paul did... Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Golf writes,

Others claim inability to believe some of the truths about Christ or the Gospel.

Star replies,

1Corinth 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 1Corinth 1:24... Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Just Him alone.

Gold writes,

These are merely attempts to conceal a heart in rebellion against God. The ultimate reason people do not come to Christ is that they don't want to.

Star replies,

Maybe they are rejecting mens messages which sound skizo nowadays. Sounds like you take a seat as judge on mens hearts, wow, I would hate to be you right now.

Golf writes,

The one WHO DOES THE TRUTH

Star replies,

I'm sure you understand what that means, you mean worketh righteousness and doing what is righteous walks in the truth.

Golf writes other stuff I cant even begin to understand.

Golf also writes,

I stil did not obtain an answer to my question. I perceive this as a copout.

Star replies,

I did answer the hell question but you see it differently then I do so you believe I did not answer your question. Reread it. You can perceive anything you want to. I'm not accountable to you golf I'm accountable to Him.
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God love ya In Him Starlaa

golfjack · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject: esthalogy

No Star, I don't judge anybody's heart. I just preach what the Bible says.

May God bless, golfjack

MoJo · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:38 pm Post subject:

Just something I noticed today about the wording here;

1Cr 15:19 If in ((this life)) only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them ((that slept.))

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, (((then))) shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory

I hadn't really caught this before, but maybe some of you did; that death swallowed up in victory doesn't happen till we put on incorruption and immortality. It's that little word ((then)) and it's also specifically individual. IOW, Jesus' death and resurrection was the first to bring about this saying, but then everyone would follow in their specific order. So it can't be said that death is abolished as long as there are still people who are corrupt because the saying cannot be brought to pass until incorruption is put on.

I believe verse 51 must be talking of the difference between the first and second resurrection.

Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

golfjack · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:41 pm Post subject: esthalogy

Hi MoJo, I don't know if I understand your interpretation of the second resurrection. Here is my interpretation of 1 Cor. 15:51-52: WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED: (the all refers to believers) the teaching here is simular to the teaching given to the Thessalonians (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Whereas the dead in Christ will be raised first, the living believers will be instantly transformed into their immortal bodies when Jesus returns. I believe that 1 Cor. 15:53-57 is about Jesus victory over spiritual death. You see, the living will receive a body that is not subject to death (Verse 50). Satans apparent victories in the garden of Eden (Gen. 3:13) and at the cross (Mark 15:22-24) were reversed by Jesus' death (Col. 2:15 and resurrection. From the vantage point of Jesus' victorious return, DEATH and HADES (grave) have no power over CHRISTIANS, because Jesus has already conquered both. We participate in His victory. After reading John 5:28, 29, I am convinced the second resurrection is the unbelievers at the end of the Millennium, where they will be judged and cast into the lake of fire for all eternity. Also, I am still convinced that there will be a rapture. Notice starting in Rev. 4:1 and through the 21 judgements, the Church isn't there. I believe believers will go to the Judgement seat of Christ, and unbelievers to the Great White Thrown Judgement.

May God bless, golfjack

MoJo · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:27 pm Post subject:

I'm basically agreeing with you golfjack, but the main point I was trying to make was concerning death because death is the last enemy to be destroyed and there are those who believe this is past and therefore all is fulfilled. However, I Cor 15 seems to make it clear, at least to me, that death being destroyed can only happen once incorruption and immortality is put on and that can only happen at the point of resurrection.

IOW, death will exist as long as there is corrupt and mortal flesh and blood. My logic would then tell me that only one thing can be true and that is that all prophecy (((cannot))) have been fulfilled yet. As long as their is corrupt flesh, the last enemy still exists.

I know people will argue that it's spiritual death that's been destroyed, but that would be to say that physical death will just continue to exist as long as flesh and blood man continues to exist. But this would be to say that at least one form of death will never be destroyed.

I don't know if I'm explaining myself clearly. It's 1:30 AM here and I should be sleeping. lol

Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Star · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject:

MoJo writes,

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, (((then))) shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory

Star replies,

Absolutely great verse Mo, I see that He hath fulfilled everything, I see the fulfillment of His life in us the desired fulfillment to be fully realized.

Who is immortality but Him= Clothed with Christ Death swallowed up in His life. You can look at it as the carnal mind= death being swallowed up in the mind of Christ= Life and peace. Or the law of "Sin and death" having no dominion (being not under law) but by faith (having the substance= Christ) for which you hope in you. Death hath no power or hold on life Himself. He is the firstborn OF the DEAD (we who were dead in our traspasses and sins) He hath quickened us who live by His Spirit and His power. You can go everywhere with it... Its all Him. Very Happy

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God love ya In Him Starlaa

lone-traveler · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:11 pm Post subject:

How can I speak of God's wonderful ways
of the works of his mighty hands
He picked up a pen and wrote us down
and put us in many lands

climb this mountain go over this sea
and I will watch your ways
just make sure you look up to me
the keeper of your days

I am a word that you have made
and placed me in your book
but there are many round me Lord
you they have forsook

I can see David standing strong
within the pages white
praising you oh mighty Lord
keeping you in his sight

not bound by leather earthenware
does he look for your face
but high beyond the heavens Lord
does he seek your woundrous grace

even now the evil words are there
the ones the devil sown
they surround me Lord on every side
Oh that the truth be known

watch over me Lord and keep me pure
for evil men do bound
to tie me up and erase my words
so that I can't be found

But you Oh God have raised me
from this very tide
and so within your new book Lord
My soul there will reside

The book you write in heaven
of mens every deed
do you not write them as they walk
are they not the very seed

Let them understand thee
let them not look down
but when they read the bible
look up above the crown

you there o man stand in the pages
of the open book
raise your eyes to heaven
take a real good look

for what you'll see is not the ink
written on the page
but that you yourself oh mighty man
live within a cage

shed the cloak of leather binding
that has got you hooked
and pray to God to unleash the chains
before your soul is cooked

The day that you created man
the pen was in your hand
but then you gave it to the man
to name the very land

take this pen and write my son
the names of every beast
and then write down within it
the paths of your very feet

And now the Lord looks down from high
to see if we wrote good
but over time we closed our eyes
covered our heads with a hood

He will not see what we can do
He is way too high
Ha Ha God says Oh silly man
I made the very sky

He watches on from every place
and searches your inner heart
God knows whats there He made it
from the very start

But every morning of every day
there is a brand new page
waiting there for your name
If you give God all your praise

Do not follow other Gods
that do not have MY Name
For I AM God Almighty
and I will always be the same

And on that day that very day
that I call your name
you will shine like golden suns
and you will have no shame

But who knows that day and hour
of which no one can be sure
because it's in God's mighty hands
to make the vessel pure

So listen now heed carefully
to the things I say
There is no God but God of gods
He is the only way

Ps:56:1: Be merciful unto me, O God: for man would swallow me up; he fighting daily oppresseth me.
Ps:56:2: Mine enemies would daily swallow me up: for they be many that fight against me, O thou most High.
Ps:56:3: What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee.
Ps:56:4: In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.
Ps:56:5: Every day they wrest my words: all their thoughts are against me for evil.
Ps:56:6: They gather themselves together, they hide themselves, they mark my steps, when they wait for my soul.
Ps:56:7: Shall they escape by iniquity? in thine anger cast down the people, O God.
Ps:56:8: Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book?
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

MoJo · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:

golfjack · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:30 am Post subject: esthalogy

Hi MoJo, There are several deaths mentioned in the Biblle, but let's examine 3. (spirutual death, physical death, and eternal death or second death, which is being cast into the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone). Spiritual death came to the earth first, them manifasted itself in the physical body by destroying it. Physical death is but a manifastation of the law which is at work within, called by Paul, the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2). When God said to Adam, in that day that thou eatest therefor thou shalt surely die, He did not refer to physical death, but to spiritual death. If man had never died spiritually, he would not have died physically. Spiritual death means separation from God. The moment Adam sinned, he was separated from God. and when God came down in the cool of the day, as was His custom to walk and talk with Adam, and called, Adam, where art thou? Adam said, I hid myself. He was separated from God. This explains why man cannot be saved by conduct. He has to be born again. If man were not a child of the devil, then he could just begin to put on the right kind of conduct, and He'd be alright. But even if he puts on right conduct, he still's a child of the devil, and will go to hell when he dies, to the lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Thanks be to God, Christ has redeemed us from spiritual death (John 5:26). The new Man, Jesus Christ, had no death in Him. He was not born as we are born, and He didn't have the spiritual nature of death, the devil in Him. Yet the Bibkle says in Hebrews 2:9 that He tasted death for every man. Jesus Christ took upon Himself our sin nature. Hebrews 2:9 says He put away sin (not sins) by the sacrifice of himself. He took upon Himself our sin nature, the nature of spiritual death, that we might have Eternal Life. He also said, I say unto you, He that hearth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life (John 5:24). Jesus came to redeem us from spiritual death. Adam was banished from the Tree of Life through rejecting God's Word. According to Revelation 2:1, all who accept and obey the Word of God are brought back to the tree of life.

MoJo, I think we are the same page. I do have a passion for the lost. I don't know how long God will tarry, but seeing that all the evil things in the World, I suspect, He could come very soon for His Church.

May God bless, golfjack