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The Justice of God

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Is God just in condemning humans to eternal punishment?

yes

50%

[ 4 ]

25%

[ 2 ]

that's not fair of God

[ 0 ]

that's not a God of love

12%

[ 1 ]

God is totally sovereign and He does whatever He pleases

12%

[ 1 ]

Author

Message

christina
Cobra

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote:

a: God = All-knowing, all-powerful
b: God created us.
c: God created our environment.
d: God created eternal punishment.

a + b + c = God is responsible for our actions.
therefore God knowingly condemns us to eternal punishment.

Clear?

How does abc = that? we are responsible for our actions, we decide to do something or not to do something, to believe or not to believe!

I have a question why cant we see God face to face?
_________________
Christina

plain_me
Big Goldfish

Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 68

Location: Pembine, WI

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject:

Please expect to hear from me again on this subject, but not now. sigh I wish I wasn't so drained, but I haven't been getting enough sleep, so I will have to return later. _________________ ...take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: for the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. Luke 12:11, 12

Truth101
Kitten

Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 146

Location: B.C

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:11 pm Post subject:

Christina says,

Quote:

How does abc = that? we are responsible for our actions, we decide to do something or not to do something, to believe or not to believe!

Hi Christina, I can give you hundreds of scriptures to prove that God has taken upon Himself RESPONSIBILTY and we are merely accountable. You will find no use of the word responsible concerning man. We are accountable (to give an account or a word concerning our actions and words). The definition for accountable is not the same as responsible. God has taken responsibilty for His creation, WHY? Because we are lost without Him and nothing we do can make it right. God is working out HIS will and purpose in the world and we can neither stop it or hinder it in any way. We are not free to believe or not believe, Jesus made that perfectly clear that unless the spirit reveals we will not believe. God hardens hearts and He shows mercy to whom He will. I see, not one shred of evidence in the bible for freewill.

Quote:

I have a question why cant we see God face to face?

Because He is spirit but we can see Him spiritually when we have eyes to see (spiritual)

God Bless,

Dave
_________________
If the many are said to find only death (whether annihilation or eternal torments) than what of the boast of God, 1Co 15:55 Where, O death, is thy sting? where, O death, thy victory? For the many will be the returned boast of death.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6338

Location: Memphis

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:34 pm Post subject:

christina wrote:

FFT wrote:

How does abc = that? we are responsible for our actions, we decide to do something or not to do something, to believe or not to believe!

Truth already said it, but didn't complete the thought to the length I would.

God is responsible for our actions, as a: he created us and b: he created our environments. However, we are held accountable for our actions.

Think of it this way: if a seven-year-old shot up a school with weapons he got from his parents, who would you arrest?

christina wrote:

I have a question why cant we see God face to face?

The same reason you can't see Zeus face to face. Or Shiva. Or any other of a number of deities.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

christina
Cobra

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:28 pm Post subject:

Quote:

We are accountable (to give an account or a word concerning our actions and words). The definition for accountable is not the same as responsible. God has taken responsibilty for His creation, WHY? Because we are lost without Him and nothing we do can make it right. God is working out HIS will and purpose in the world and we can neither stop it or hinder it in any way. We are not free to believe or not believe, Jesus made that perfectly clear that unless the spirit reveals we will not believe. God hardens hearts and He shows mercy to whom He will. I see, not one shred of evidence in the bible for freewill.

Responsible-
Being the one who must meet an obligation or suffer the consequences for failing to do so (each student is responsible for getting his or her own homework done on time)

We will be Responsible for the Sin we commit.
Jesus said God will keep knocking at our door. WE choose to open it or to ignore it.

Quote:

I have a question why cant we see God face to face?

Because God could not allow sinners to be in his presence without totally destroying them so he hides his face for our sake so that we may live.

We are saved through Jesus we are annointed with his blood which makes us perfect, then and only when our sins are erased may we be able to see God face to face because he will see us as sin free
_________________
Christina

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6338

Location: Memphis

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:34 pm Post subject:

christina wrote:

Because God could not allow sinners to be in his presence without totally destroying them so he hides his face for our sake so that we may live.

Utter crock. Why not?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

christina
Cobra

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:36 pm Post subject:

What does "Crock" mean _________________ Christina

Fake
Tiger

Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:57 pm Post subject:

christina wrote:

What does "Crock" mean

somewhat like bullsh*t/load of crap/nonsense

Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.”

Phinehas
Show Poodle

Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 262

Location: St. Cloud

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:48 am Post subject:

Truth101 wrote:

To say we send ourselves there is rediculous. Who would ever want to go to a place so horrible, let alone send ourselves there?

With this same reasoning we could just leave punishment up to our own children. They could ground themselves smack their own hands for going in the cookie jar. Lets consider this logically.

Logically...

Hi Dave. Logically, I disagree. Let's take your example of children punishing themselves for going in the cookie jar. Why would the children even need to be punished? There is only one reason, which is that the owner/keeper of the cookie jar told the children not to take any cookies from the cookie jar. While the child may not understand or appreciate the reasons, the owner/keeper of the cookie jar likely knows that cookies do not make the most nutritious breakfast or may ruin one's appetite for dinner and may be keeping the cookies for after dinner. The cookie jar owner/keeper loves the children and so wants them to eat in a healthy manner.

So, if the cookie jar owner/keeper has (1) instructed the children not to eat cookies until he says it's OK and (2) informed the children of what the punishment will be, the decision to bring on the punishment is that of the children.

Obviously, this argument applies only to those who have heard the cookie jar owner/keeper's instructions, however. Maybe we who know the rules about the cookie jar should tell those who don't. Wink

Truth101 wrote:

If this torment be eternal there is no day or night there. This is proof that the torment is not eternal since days and nights are elements of time and eternity is without beginning or end.

Is the actual state of being tormeted that which is eternal? Here's what I'm finding:

Mt. 18:8 and 25:41 say that it is the fire that is eternal, but Mt. 25:46 says that it is the punishment that is eternal.

In 2Thes. 1:9, Paul refers to an eternal destruction, but does this mean that those to whom he is referring will be being destroyed for ever or that their destruction is permanent?

At Heb. 6:2, the author refers to an eternal judgment, but does this mean that the act of judging is eternal or that the judgment passed will not change?

Jude wrote at 1:6 that God kept some disobedient angels (pre-flood angels?) in eternal bonds "...for the judgment of the great day." I don't think it means that these angels will be "paroled" once judged, but the bonds cannot be eternal if they are only until their time of judgment. The following verse, 1:7, refers to the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah as being examples of ones undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. While here it is the fire that is eternal and not necessarily the punishment, the wording sure seems to imply that it is the punishment that is eternal.

In Revelation, it starts to get interesting. At 19:20 we see that the beast and false prophet are to be thrown into the lake of fire, and later the devil himself at 20:10. At 20:10 we learn that these three are to be tormented there for ever. Does this apply to any others, or do others simply die the second death (20:14-15)? At 20:14 we see that it is death and Hades (the place of the dead) that are also cast into the lake of fire. Does that then end the existence of the place of the dead and those souls in it?

I know I ask a lot of questions here, but only because I don't have the answers. I just thought I'd bring these things out for discussion. I'd be interested to see what everyone has to say about it. And feel free to shoot it down quickly if I've overlooked something obvious.
_________________
“When they chose new gods, war came to the city gates, and not a shield or spear was seen among forty thousand in Israel. My heart is with Israel's princes, with the willing volunteers among the people. Praise the LORD!” Judges 5:8-9

Phinehas
Show Poodle

Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 262

Location: St. Cloud

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:52 am Post subject:

Truth101 wrote:

What of the lost? Are we not to be prepared to give an answer always?

I used to be a devotee of Krishna and, after coming to faith in Jesus, I heard a great saying about a key Hare Krishna doctrine. I'll try to be brief. Satan called a meeting with his chief demons to come up with a new way to oppose the work of Christians. Long story short, the last demon comes up with an idea that Satan liked, which is to deceive Christians into believing that getting to Heaven is important, but that there's no need to rush to get there. His proposal was to introduce the concept of reincarnation.

I mention this because I see the possibility that your telling nonbelievers that all will be saved whether they receive Christ as Lord and Savior or not as having a similar effect. But we see in Heb. 9:27 that we are to die once and then face judgment. I guess the question is, on what will that judgment be based?
_________________
“When they chose new gods, war came to the city gates, and not a shield or spear was seen among forty thousand in Israel. My heart is with Israel's princes, with the willing volunteers among the people. Praise the LORD!” Judges 5:8-9

christina
Cobra

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:28 am Post subject:

FFT you already said yourself you do not know my Father you even say he doesn’t exist, so now how is it that you can determine whether what I say about him is true or false? _________________ Christina

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6338

Location: Memphis

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:48 am Post subject:

christina wrote:

FFT you already said yourself you do not know my Father you even say he doesn’t exist, so now how is it that you can determine whether what I say about him is true or false?

Because:

christina wrote:

Because God could not allow sinners to be in his presence without totally destroying them so he hides his face for our sake so that we may live.

Is logically inconsistent with an all-knowing, all-powerful and loving god. It's also stupid. And you nearly avoided my question by trying to shift the focus on to me. Nice try, but:

Explain why "God could not allow sinners to be in his presence without totally destroying them so he hides his face for our sake so that we may live."
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

christina
Cobra

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:48 am Post subject:

fft wrote

Quote:

First let me remind you I dont believe Jesus is God I believe Jesus is Gods Son.
Second- Since God is all-knowing he knows what is, he is powerful enough to destroy all sin but since he loves us he gaves us one last chance through Christ Jesus.
We are desendants of Adam and Eve who he removed from his presence
We were born sinners, but now we are made clean.

Quote:

And you nearly avoided my question by trying to shift the focus on to me. Nice try, but:

What question was that?
_________________
Christina

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6338

Location: Memphis

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:12 am Post subject:

christina wrote:

Great. Show me the scriptural evidence for this "Original Sin" idea.

christina wrote:

Quote:

And you nearly avoided my question by trying to shift the focus on to me. Nice try, but:

What question was that?

It was the NEXT. LINE.

FFT wrote:

Nice try, but:

Explain why "God could not allow sinners to be in his presence without totally destroying them so he hides his face for our sake so that we may live."

I also asked a question earlier, on the questions of responsibility and accountability:

FFT wrote:

if a seven-year-old shot up a school with weapons he got from his parents, who would you arrest?

_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

christina
Cobra

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:41 am Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Great. Show me the scriptural evidence for this "Original Sin" idea.

21 Corinthians 15:20-28
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Quote:

I also asked a question earlier, on the questions of responsibility and accountability:
if a seven-year-old shot up a school with weapons he got from his parents, who would you arrest?

I would not arrest anybody I do not have the authority to do so.
_________________
Christina

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