The Justice of God

revmattchoo.com · House Cat Joined: 02 Sep 2003 Posts: 168

ok, here goes on this topic, and i'm postin it cause i dont know if a similar post has been posted on this topic. neways....

is God just in condemning humans to eternal punishment? if u consider it, God is infinitely holy, infinitely awesome, infinitely righteous, etc... The human race has chosen to turn their backs on this infinitely holy, righteous, awesome God and worship anything and anyone else that they can find to set their affections on. therefore, we are infinitely guilty and thus deserve punishment that fits the crime.

thoughts and comments...

topic of grace and/or mercy possibly to follow later.
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Phinehas · Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:08 am Post subject:

I did not cast a vote because I think the question is phrased incorrectly. Is it God who condemns us to eternal punishment, or is it ourselves?
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“When they chose new gods, war came to the city gates, and not a shield or spear was seen among forty thousand in Israel. My heart is with Israel's princes, with the willing volunteers among the people. Praise the LORD!” Judges 5:8-9

Nobby · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:38 am Post subject:

revmattchoo, I feel the same way as Phinehas.
You know you can edit & change the wording if you want. That's up to you. Smile

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Truth101 · Kitten Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 146 Location: B.C

Hi all,

I thought I would resurrect this thread because I find this to be a very important topic for discussion. I think the topic should be is eternal torment real or not?

I personally do not believe that one person will experience eternal torment or annihlation.

Lets face it, if eternal torments were real than it would be God sending us there. The bible calls it punishment and who is doing the punishing?

To say we send ourselves there is rediculous. Who would ever want to go to a place so horrible, let alone send ourselves there?

With popular reasoning, those who don't even know about this place or Jesus for that matter are going to send themselves to a place they don't even know about?

With this same reasoning we could just leave punishment up to our own children. They could ground themselves smack their own hands for going in the cookie jar. Lets consider this logically.

Logically if Eternal punishment exists than it is God sending us there.

Now for the question "is God just for sending us to eternal torments?"

I say, no way and I come to this conclusion through scripture. This is not just my opinion.

Does anyone have a logical scriptural reason why they believe God would be just in this case?

God bless,

Dave
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If the many are said to find only death (whether annihilation or eternal torments) than what of the boast of God, 1Co 15:55 Where, O death, is thy sting? where, O death, thy victory? For the many will be the returned boast of death.

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

I see the point ... as being a concern whether God is initiating punishment with no intention to convert or, through justice, to rehabilitate the sinful human nature to be something salvagable in an eternal place with God, rather than an eternal punishment in hell with no hope or opportunity of reconciliation to God.

Being reconciled to God through Christ is available now, according to scripture. That is the rehabilitating method of God, ordained.

After judgement however, there is little evidence that God plans to correct and reconcile the committed and stubborn lawless individuals who love sin to their own demise.

Of course they have seduced them self to believe a lie, that even they can be reconciled to God, while retaining and practicing their sinful nature without any intent to stop or want to stop, leaning toward the side of God being merciful and endlessly committed to save everyone that He has made, no matter how treacherous they behave.

Is there any hope for the truly evil?

I see none, scripturally speaking!

thunder
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Truth101 · Kitten Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 146 Location: B.C

The bible speaks on predestination whether complete predestination which rules out freewill or just a predestination of a few souls.

So we can consider the predestination of a few and the neglect of the many. If God only predestinated a few to be saved from eternal torments than He would be unjust and partial for sending all others to be tormented.

The fact that these are tormented "DAY AND NIGHT", should give us the common sense to realise there is existing time. If this torment be eternal there is no day or night there. This is proof that the torment is not eternal since days and nights are elements of time and eternity is without beginning or end. It is after this TIME of torment that God will be all in all. When God is all in all we will have no need of the sun or the moon (which give us days and nights) because Gods glory will be more than sufficiant enough for light.
To think that those who die are unreachable after they die is to limit the power of God to human level. It is our mindset (not the scriptures) which carry limits of such. Did Jesus not raise the dead to give an example that the grave was not a limit to Him? How can we limit the One who holds the keys of death and say He has no power beyond the grave?

Lets consider the parables. Jesus spoke in parables to all and none understood. Jesus only explained these parables to His disciples. The multitudes were left in their confusion while the disciples were GIVEN understanding. If eternal punishment is true than the multitudes left and died in their sins because "my people parish for lack of knowledge". If Jesus had of spoke clearly or at least explained the parables to the multitudes, they would have believed and been converted and He would save them, but He chose to let them die in their sins. These were poeple like you and I and everyone on this forum who were hanging on His every word. Most will say "but these poeple were there for personal gain, to be healed to be fed, etc etc." How true but also realize that this is the way Jesus chose to get everyones attention. These miracles were done so people would take notice. Also this is the same thing everyone is seeking. I am seeking to be fed of God, I'm seeking to be made whole. I am hanging on His every word. What kind of assurance can I have if eternal torment exists?

Aionion fire, torment, punishment, chastisement, etc, is all for correction. The death of the body merely puts us into a better condition to save as we are told in scripture that the dead are free from sin, one must die to live, you have to lose to gain, seeds must die in the ground before they can live. In human logic it is all over when the heart stops. God will resurrect you and say, "No I'm not done with you yet".

God Bless,

Dave
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If the many are said to find only death (whether annihilation or eternal torments) than what of the boast of God, 1Co 15:55 Where, O death, is thy sting? where, O death, thy victory? For the many will be the returned boast of death.

plain_me · Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:20 pm Post subject:

Truth,

I believe you are sincere in your arguments, but nonetheless, I believe you to be sincerely confused.

Truth101 · Kitten Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 146 Location: B.C

Hi Plain,

Quote,

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

That which is impossible ... for man is possible with God and," nothing shall be impossible with God."

Man struggles to cross the swift river where on one side of the river is predestination and on the other is free will.

God lives above those swift waters and makes the transition smoothly.

Man looks for logical arguments to reject almost every conceivable opportunity to be reconciled to God thru Christ , washed and regeneration of the Holy Ghost and made holy before God.

Winning a carnal argument to omit the power of God is a big setback.

thunder
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Truth101 · Kitten Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 146 Location: B.C

What of the lost? Are we not to be prepared to give an answer always?

On one hand they are told nothing is impossible for God but then in the very next breath they are told but God cannot..... Tooo much limiting God because of limited faith.

This is not a carnal conversation. This subject is a mystery to those without understanding of it. The reason I post these things is so those who God is calling to recieve this will indeed recieve it. I know that MANY will read it and accuse it but a few will come and recieve light. There is alot more to this subject than just the final restoration of all.

Anyways I just stopped in for a second but have to work tonight,

God bless you Thunder,

Dave
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If the many are said to find only death (whether annihilation or eternal torments) than what of the boast of God, 1Co 15:55 Where, O death, is thy sting? where, O death, thy victory? For the many will be the returned boast of death.

MoJo · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:32 pm Post subject:

Not to start a debate with you Dave, but I just wanted to make a point because you keep saying that those who aren't convinced of UR are suggesting God's salvational power is limited. I wanted to say for myself that this is not a true assessment of the situation as I see it. God's power to save is not limited, however it becomes a question of whether he will save. UR says he (((must))) save. I say it is His decision who will be saved or who won't be saved. He tells us that when he says I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.

To say anything else is to put ourselves in the judgment seat and that seat belongs to the Ancient of Days.

Very Happy

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plain_me · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject:

Dave,

I'm sorry, but I need to clarify; Are you saying that everyone will eventually make it to heaven? Even those that do not choose Christ in this lifetime?

You make it seem almost as if you are talking about a "purgatory" of some sort. It sounds to me as if you're saying that if one does not choose Christ in this life then God will put them in hell & say, "Why don't you just think about what you did & get back to me when you've changed your mind."

I'm sorry if I seem sarcastic, but truly this is how it sounds to me. If all will eventually make it to Heaven at one point or another, why don't I just live in my sin now & suffer for awhile when this life is over? I would get to Heaven after that time of suffering anyways, and what's a bit of time burning up in "puratory" when I'll have an eternity after that to live in paradise?

I also would like to respond to a comment that you had made:

Truth101 · Kitten Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 146 Location: B.C

[quote="plain_me"]Dave,

FFT · Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:55 am Post subject:

Truth101 · Kitten Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 146 Location: B.C

It seems pretty logical to me FFT. Laughing

God bless,

Dave
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If the many are said to find only death (whether annihilation or eternal torments) than what of the boast of God, 1Co 15:55 Where, O death, is thy sting? where, O death, thy victory? For the many will be the returned boast of death.