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Robert
Growing Guppy
Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Arizona
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 Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Ranch
I have to go for today, but Sheol is in Hebrew is the same place as Hades in Greek which as all have already said was emptied when Christ ascended.
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RANCHERO
Goldfish
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 56
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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cool, be safe and good night
GOD BLESS
RANCHERO 
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VIVA CHRIST!!!!!
Cristo estableció la iglesia católica hace 2005 años!!! |
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Robert
Growing Guppy
Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Ranch
You still have not showed me purgatory in the bible. You surmize and speculate but show nothing.
I asked you to keep it short; we are going over the same thing again and again. Either Christ paid for all our sins or we will never get to heaven. The wages of sin is death and we died with Christ therefore there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:31-39).
You are not making your case Ranch, but I love you anyhow because I beleive you are sincere.
May the Lord bless
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RANCHERO
Goldfish
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 56
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Well I thank you for saying I am being sincere. Well when we are debating about purgatory, there are a lot of other theological differences that we must debate on. First you have to tell me why John is not sufficient enough about his idea of Mortal and venial sin. Let me ask you this, if you accept john, do you accept the idea of mortal and venial sin? Also I would like you to answer my question, can I steal, lie and break a window and still say that it is okay , I am paid for. My question is “if you just stole a pencil” was that okay? Did God die so that you can steal that pencil and still go to heaven, or are you going to be punished? I believe that even though Jesus died for our sins, we still have to have temporal punishment for our sins. Jesus died so that we can be sanctified.
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Either Christ paid for all our sins or we will never get to heaven. The wages of sin is death and we died with Christ therefore there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:31-39). |
Even though you have given your life to Jesus Christ does that mean that you will not sin anymore. We have fallen natures, and we have free will. Jesus died for you but since you have sinned you must be purified of that sin. Christ opened that purification up to you when he died. Like a lot of people have given their life to Christ, but they were not holy. Hitler was a Christian. He said he was with Christ Jesus. My point is that you need more then just accepting Christ as your savior, you must obey his commands and live according to his will. We have earthly desires that we sometimes put above other things, like if you went through one second of your life with out thinking about God, that is a sin. We all have sin, since some sin is lesser then others, our lesser sins must be purified out of us when we die. Because of Christ Death.
Now I am glad that you believed in purgatory before Christ came, so did the Jews,
I found out that almost every other branch of Abraham believes in purgatory.
Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.
Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox have always proclaimed the reality of the final purification for those who need it. It was not until the Protestant Reformers came in the 1500s that any Christians denied the idea of a final purgation before seeing the face of God.
now for bible verses for purgatory, I offered you two, I figured we shall go one by one in order to avoid confusion.
In 1Peter 3:19, Christ preached to the spirits in prison. We will become pure spirits only after we die, so the spirits have to be the spirits of the dead. Prison cannot mean Heaven, and souls in hell are lost forever. Prison must mean a third place.
Matthew 12:32, "...but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him either in this world or in the world to come." This passage alludes to another world in which some sins will be forgiven. What other world? Again it could not be either Heaven or hell.
Also In the Catholic bible, it talks about in the book of 2Maccabees that it is good to prey for the dead that they may be loosed from the sins. This goes with the place of Sehaol that you believed in.
i believe that i have upholded that scripture has indeed showed that there is two types of sin and that God opened up purgatory for us so that we may be purified with our lesser sins. prove me wrong.
THANK YOU
GOD BLESS
RANCH
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Robert
Growing Guppy
Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Ranch says:
| Quote: | | Do you accept the idea of mortal and venial sin? Also I would like you to answer my question, can I steal, lie and break a window and still say that it is okay , I am paid for. My question is “if you just stole a pencil” was that okay? Did God die so that you can steal that pencil and still go to heaven, or are you going to be punished? I believe that even though Jesus died for our sins, we still have to have temporal punishment for our sins. Jesus died so that we can be sanctified. |
You are not the only one who have accused Paul of teaching that. Read Rom. 6:1-2. Here the opposition to Paul’s gospel of grace is in reality the same as yours. Some said that Paul taught that, ok, now we are saved, Christ has paid for all our sins forever and we can do as we please and grace covers it all. This brings us to what we have already been over.
Paul reminds them of the truth that the one who is in Christ has already been condemned in Christ and died with Him. That is the reason He died, it was in your place and mine. As to those who (vv. 15-16) who persist in sins; it is proof that he is not in the service of Christ. Verses 17 and 17 Paul reminds them that they have renounced that kind of life after they are in Christ. As to Jesus dying so we can be sanctified, I take it you are getting back to Purgatory. If we can be sanctified by going to hell in a place you call purgatory, then we don’t need a savior. What you are saying is, Jesus paid for our sins but we still have to pay for them also. That is not even rational.
You say:
| Quote: | | Even though you have given your life to Jesus Christ does that mean that you will not sin anymore. We have fallen natures, and we have free will. Jesus died for you but since you have sinned you must be purified of that sin. Christ opened that purification up to you when he died. |
Ranch, you still don’t get it, if Christ died and we are in him and have been accounted as having died with Him. How do you purify a dead man? Good grief Ranch, I don’t know how I can say it any plainer. Your problem is, you refuse to accept Paul’s explanation of grace. Methinks you should study the Scriptures more instead of listening to those so called priests who can never forgive anyone’s sins and who are misleading you.
It seems to me that anyone who thinks that there is any chance of going to a burning fire for he don’t know how long would be more attentive to Paul when he says there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
You said’
| Quote: | | Like a lot of people have given their life to Christ, but they were not holy. Hitler was a Christian. He said he was with Christ Jesus. |
I have no idea where you got the idea that Hitler was a Christian, and I don’t even want to know.
You continue
| Quote: | | My point is that you need more then just accepting Christ as your savior, you must obey his commands. |
That is exactly what the Jews were telling Paul’s converts. Ok now we have been saved, our sins have all been paid for, but now we have to keep the commandments, but he tells the Galatians they are not justified by the works of the law (being good and not doing any wrong) but by being justified by faith in Christ (Gal. 2:16). They did not receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law, why would they think they could keep Him by keeping the law. Your position is the same as those who claimed his converts had to not only believe, but also keep the law, and Paul said anyone who taught that, "let them be accursed."
Oh but you say: after coming to Christ, now we have to be without sin or be cast into fire. Read Gal. 3:1-3. Paul asks them, if you received Christ and his forgiveness through faith, do they now think they will satisfy God by keeping the law? Because we or they have received the Holy Spirit does not mean we will not sin anymore; read 2:16 again.
You continue
| Quote: | | We all have sin, since some sin is lesser then others, our lesser sins must be purified out of us when we die. Because of Christ Death. |
We have to be purified because of the death of Christ? Ranch, that is unholy nonsense.
How many times do I have to remind you, any sin will condemn anyone to hell for all eternity. The wages of sin is death and those in Christ have died already for any and all sins. As for what the Jews think about sins and punishment, I couldn’t care less since they also as you reject Christ’s payment for our sins.
You say:
| Quote: | | In 1Peter 3:19, Christ preached to the spirits in prison. |
You cannot use that passage to prove anything. You failed to notice or include that those He preached to were before the flood and has nothing to do with the present.
You say:
| Quote: | | We will become pure spirits only after we die. |
I fear for you Ranch, you are not trusting in Christ’s payment for your sins, you are trusting in a place you call purgatory and those who are misleading you into rejecting the simple gospel of Paul that leads to life.
You say:
| Quote: | | Matthew 12:32, "...but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him either in this world or in the world to come." This passage alludes to another world in which some sins will be forgiven. What other world? Again it could not be either Heaven or hell. |
I have already been over that. The age (not world) to come is the kingdom that He is going to establish on earth at His second coming. The same one He was offering. As to the book of 2 Maccabees, that isn’t proof of anything. Rome uses that because they cannot find what they want in the bible.
Ranch, my sincerest desire for you and all Catholics is that thy might see the glorious gospel of Christ as Paul taught it where you can find complete justification before God. Have you been taught anything about the Holy Place in the land of Israel? How that the high priest could only go into the place once each year and that with trembling and fear because of his sins. But now, Heb. 10:19-21 tells us that we can with boldness enter into the presence of God because we have been consecrated by the blood of Christ and He, not some man made Roman priest has supplied the sacrifice. Could we enter into the very presence of a holy God if any sins were charged to us? It is because we are now pure in Christ, not ourselves and we haven’t been to your purgatory. Think about that, and I and others on the forum who know the truth will pray that God will open your eyes to see the freedom you can have in Christ alone.
May the Lord bless
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RANCHERO
Goldfish
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 56
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Over view-So far in the debate, our major problems have been the mortal, venial sins problem. and The idea that Christ work on the cross seems to contradict purgatory. We both agree that we must be the holiest in Heaven. I have showed that there was a purgatory before Christ came and my opponent agrees, he has to show me a verse where it says that Christ closed that place up, you haven’t. I believe we also agree that we are all sinners. This debate is Fun!! The best thing I did this summer.
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If we can be sanctified by going to hell in a place you call purgatory, then we don’t need a savior. What you are saying is, Jesus paid for our sins but we still have to pay for them also. That is not even rational. And We have to be purified because of the death of Christ? Ranch, that is unholy nonsense. |
Purgatory is not hell, it is only for those who are going to heaven, you seem to believe that there is no temporal punishment after sin. You are acting that we pay for ourselves in purgatory, I can see it now, you die and there is a booth where you add 25 dollars and then you are purified, no!! purgatory is the Sanctification that Jesus gave us when he died on the cross. But to believe this, you must also believe in temporal punishment, faith and works, and mortal/ venial sins. But as to the sanctification of Jesus Christ, you cannot say that it is not true, you still believe that Jesus sanctifies you. As a Fundamentalist, you cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict.
You say we are dead to sin, but we still sin. Does Jesus cover up our sin?
| Quote: | | Ranch, you still don’t get it, if Christ died and we are in him and have been accounted as having died with Him. How do you purify a dead man? Good grief Ranch, I don’t know how I can say it any plainer. Your problem is, you refuse to accept Paul’s explanation of grace. |
You seem to over simplify the words of Paul, we must follow the gospels and the laws of Jesus. Just because I believe in Jesus doesn’t mean I will go to Heaven. We are all sinners. You have sinned since you accepted Christ. Catholics believe in temporal punishment of sin. This is where the debate is going, the idea of temporal punishment even after accepting Christ. If I can prove that, then I can prove that even though Christ died, we still sin, and the sin leads to temporal punishment. Which the punishment happens in purgatory, by Christ.
It is pretty sad that Hitler was a Christian, Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. This just shows that you must do more then just believe.
| Quote: | | That is exactly what the Jews were telling Paul’s converts. Ok now we have been saved, our sins have all been paid for, but now we have to keep the commandments, but he tells the Galatians they are not justified by the works of the law (being good and not doing any wrong) but by being justified by faith in Christ (Gal. 2:16). They did not receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law, why would they think they could keep Him by keeping the law. Your position is the same as those who claimed his converts had to not only believe, but also keep the law, and Paul said anyone who taught that, "let them be accursed." This is another idea that persist the problem of purgatory for you. |
That is a idea that blocks you from accepting purgatory, you do have to accept Christ, but you also have to accept his laws.
Saved by faith and works
Jam 2:14-26 which starts with (14) "What will it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but does not have Works? Can the faith save him?...(17) So faith too, unless it has Works, is dead in itself...(20) Faith without Works is useless...(21) Was not Abraham our father justified by Works when he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? (22) Do you not see that Faith worked along with his Works, and by the Works the faith was made perfect?...(24) You see that by Works a man is justified, and not by faith only....(26) For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so, Faith also without Works is Dead." 'Subjective Salvation' in action, is shown for that whole section written by St. James. I could go on and on with verses like this, and could ask questions such as, why is there a need for the ten commandments, since we are 'automatically saved'? I think you get the message from what I have shown. We have to love and obey God.
Read Matt 25:31:46. It is all about doing good works in this life. Then there is Rev 14:13, "And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, 'Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them.'" Is that clear enough that works are needed in addition to faith? Still not convinced? Then how about another crystal clear verse? Rev 22:12, "Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one according to his works."
| Quote: | | Could we enter into the very presence of a holy God if any sins were charged to us? |
No! that means we must be holy in Heaven! Cool, we agree on that.
| Quote: | | Paul reminds them of the truth that the one who is in Christ has already been condemned in Christ and died with Him. That is the reason He died, it was in your place and mine. Verses 17 and 17 Paul reminds them that they have renounced that kind of life after they are in Christ. |
This goes back to what you say about faith and works. A lot of people have claimed to be dead with sin. But later they turn to an Atheist or in a protestant term “back slide”. a dead person can still sin, and their can still be temporal punishment even after you give your life up to Christ.
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Cristo estableció la iglesia católica hace 2005 años!!! |
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RANCHERO
Goldfish
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 56
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How many times do I have to remind you, any sin will condemn anyone to hell for all eternity. The wages of sin is death and those in Christ have died already for any and all sins. |
remember what James said about beginning sin and mature sin. The sin that Paul was talking about was the mature sin. Romans chapter 6 Verse 22 also talks about the sanctification, so you cannot say that sanctification is not real. How many times do I have to tell you about what John says about mortal venial sins? You can believe in mortal/venial sin without believing in purgatory Robert.
| Quote: | | As to those who (vv. 15-16) who persist in sins; it is proof that he is not in the service of Christ. |
Let me ask you, after you gave your life up to Christ, you did not sin no more? every second of your life you were thinking about God? Remember, all have sinned. To say you have not sinned is against the Scripture. some sin is less then others and sin leads to temporal punishment
| Quote: | | I have already been over that. The age (not world) to come is the kingdom that He is going to establish on earth at His second coming. The same one He was offering |
There is nowhere in that passage that talks about the second coming of Christ, to say that is adding to the bible. Also it is illogical, after Christ comes, no sin can be forgiven, all will be judged. This alludes to after you die. The next age is the age after death. And in that age some sins can be forgiven, but the sin of blasphemy against the holy spirit can not.
| Quote: | | You cannot use that passage to prove anything. You failed to notice or include that those He preached to were before the flood and has nothing to do with the present. |
Actually it was in the present time of Christ. He died and then went to that prison. It was after the flood. Christ died and was out of the flesh , but in his spirit, he spoke to people in a prison.
| Quote: | | As for what the Jews think about sins and punishment, I couldn’t care less since they also as you reject Christ’s payment for our sins. |
first of all, I do not reject his payment of our sin, and Jesus was a jew who believed most of what they believed OH!! Okay, you are going to care less about the religion of Jesus, the old testament, the other branches of Abraham and only follow a 14 century monk named Martin Luther. Right!
| Quote: | | As to the book of 2 Maccabees, that isn’t proof of anything. Rome uses that because they cannot find what they want in the bible. |
Cool! All I have to prove is that Maccabees is inspired to prove that purgatory exist. Let me ask you, when and at what council were the book of Maccabees labeled uninspired?
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Methinks you should study the Scriptures more instead of listening to those so called priests who can never forgive anyone’s sins and who are misleading you. |
Oh, let me tell you I do study scripture and about the forgiveness, that is a different topic. No need to bring up that multiple attacks . I would rather believe a priest who has to spend years studying theology and scripture then a pastor who all he has to do is just get a license.
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Think about that, and I and others on the forum who know the truth will pray that God will open your eyes to see the freedom you can have in Christ alone. |
I thank you for your prayers brother. I know I have freedom in Christ alone. I prey that God opens your eyes.
this debate is going to temporal punishment and faith with works.
GOD BLESS
RANCHERO
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Robert
Growing Guppy
Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Hello Ranch, you said:
I have showed that there was a purgatory before Christ came and my opponent agrees.
I have never agreed that there is a place you call purgatory, nor will I. the whole discussion had to do with you saying there is, and me saying there was no such place.
Ranch I much admire your spirit in the debate. You are a great guy and very sharp, but you will never prove from Scripture that there is a purgatory. It's not there, directly, or indirectly.
I have tried to explain from the Word and reason my side to the extent that I don't know anything else to say. We have begun to repeat outselves over and over. In all honesty I do not think there is anything else we can discuss that hasn't already been said, so if it's ok, I will leave off with my side of the discussion.
Thanks for you sincere efforts, I love you buddy.
May the Lord bless.
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RANCHERO
Goldfish
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 56
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:00 am Post subject: |
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You agreed that there was a sheol, you did not call it purgatory
Is this really the end?
No!!!
Oh well I shall give you two more verses and then I guess that it the end!? I have to get ready for school anyway.
If I can give you anything, I will show you that the Catholic bible has the right books of the bibles
The Apocrypha...
This is what the fundamentalists call the 7 books in Catholic Bibles that protestant Bibles do not have. Catholics call them 'Deuterocanonicals'. They are, Baruch, Judith, Sirach, Tobit, Wisdom, and 1 and 2 Maccabees. They also include parts of Daniel and Esther. There are many other books, called Apocrypha, by Catholics that are not considered inspired. I believe Protestants merely put those 7 books in the same pot and called them all Apocrypha.
The Problem...
Non Catholics insist that the 'Council of Trent' added those seven books to bring the total number of books to 73. They point to the fact that the 'Council of Jamnia' removed those books from the Bible in 90-95 A.D., so they were never in the 'Bible' from that date on.
The Solution...
Absolutely right, for the second part of the problem. The 'Council of Jamnia' did indeed remove those 7 books. The fact of the matter is that Jamnia was not a Christian council, but a Jewish one, called specifically to counter Christianity. In keeping with their practice of presenting only half truths, the non-Catholic detractors fail to mention that fact. The Apostles and Christians in general, used the Greek'Septuagint', also called LXX, as their Bible in the first century. This upset the Jews, so they decided to call a council to deal with the matter. Keep in mind that the Jewish temple was completely destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D., and the Jewish priests were killed. Now they were fearful that Christianity would overtake them. The Septuagint is the Old Testament translation into Greek from Hebrew, which the Jews completed at Alexandria in the second century B.C., and it had all 46 books including the Deuterocanonicals. The Jews decided to revise the canon of the Old Testament and they wanted to remove references that would be useful to Christians.
Christians continued to use the Septuagint. In 397 the Old Testament canon containing all 46 books was formalized along with the 27 inspired books of the New Testament at the Council of Carthage. St. Jerome completed a Latin translation of the entire Bible in 405, called the 'Vulgate' which can still be found today. It always had all 73 books. All Christian Bibles for the next 1100 years had all 73 books. Martin Luther, at about 1521 decided to remove the 7 Deuterocanonicals from the Old Testament and put them in an appendix, because they had teachings of the Catholic Church which he rejected, such as Purgatory. He used as an excuse, that they were already removed at Jamnia, and never should have been considered as inspired. Yes, but don't forget that the Jews did it at Jamnia, not the Christians. On Luther's own initiative, he removed 7 books that had been in use from before the first day of Christianity. Let me ask you, if they were "added" at the Council of Trent in 1545, how could Luther have removed them some 20 years earlier if they weren't there?
The Council of Trent was called in 1545 in response to the protestant reformation. One of the things they accomplished at Trent was a "reaffirmation that the 7 disputed books were indeed inspired and would continue to be included in the canon of the Old Testament". They did not add them. They merely reconfirmed that they should be there. All Christian Bibles for the first 1500 years of Christianity had 46 books in the Old Testament, and all Catholic Bibles today continue to have them. I have noticed that even some King James Bibles now have them. Why is this?
History of the canons of the Old Testament can be confirmed by checking the records of the Councils of Hippo, Carthage, and Trent. They are readily available, as is St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate and the Septuagint.
Christianity was in effect for between 35-65 years before the Jewish Council of Jamnia was called. As such, the Jewish Council had absolutely no authority whatsoever over Christianity. Suppose that next month of this year, the Jews decided to call a council in order to remove Isaiah and Jeremiah from the Old Testament and then voted to do it. Would Protestants also remove these books from the King James bible? It would seem they have already set a precedent. Why do Protestants accept the ruling of the Jewish Council of Jamnia, and at the same time reject the ruling of the Christian Council of Carthage regarding the Old Testament canon? Further still, why do they accept the canon of the New Testament which was decided at the same Christian Council?
Also Catholics believe Paul also spoke of purgatory:
"The work of each will builder will come to light, for the day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss, the person will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)
I hope the least I have done is showed that the Deutorocanicals are inspired. I thank you for letting me have a fun first debate. I hope I will have more debates in the future. It was a blast!!
GOD BLESS
RANCHERO
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5151
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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This debate is over, Nobby 
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Much Love Nobby
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