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Nobby
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 Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:27 am Post subject: "Is Purgatory Real" |
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This is a "One-on-One debate, between Username: RANCHERO & Username: Robert.
They will debate the topic: "Is Purgatory Real"
Be sure to read the rules over here as there are some extra ones because its much different than the open board. You won't hear from me aslong as you follow the rules.
Have at it Guys, have a lot of fun! 
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Last edited by Nobby on Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:13 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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RANCHERO
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: |
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First, I would like to thank Nobby for letting us have this debate and Robert for taking part of this debate.
I guess I will start by stating what purgatory is, how you get there, and what happens in purgatory.
In order to show the logic behind purgatory, you must first understand what purgatory is. The Catholicism of the Catholic Church states that All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. You see purgatory is the final purification of our souls. REV 21,27 says that we must be sinless in his presence, because that is how we were created to be, in his image. Therefore, we have to be cleansed of all sin. Now, most people will say that they are not the same as Hitler, but on the same token, most people will not say that they are the most sinless holiest person in the world. We are all fallible humans who sin. The Catholic church teaches that there are two types of sin, mortal and venial, mortal is sin leading to hell, and venial, which is sin not so bad but can still lead to mortal. We may not be in a state of mortal sin but be immersed in venial sin Now lets just say you die in a state of sin that is not enough to get you to hell, but you can not enter heaven with sin. What happens then? Christ purifies you through purgatory. Some say that purgatory is a second chance. Absolutely FALSE!!! all people in purgatory are already accepted by God and are going to heaven. But since they are not as holy as needed for heaven, they must go to the suffering loving punishment of purgatory. The suffering we experience in sanctification in this life is something we receive because of Christ's sacrifice for us. His sufferings paid the price for us to be sanctified, and his sufferings paid the price for the whole of our sanctification -- both the initial and final parts. Thus it is because of Christ's sacrifice that we receive the final sanctification in the first place! If he had not suffered, we would not be given the final sanctification (or the glorification to which it leads), but would go straight to hell. Thus purgatory does not imply Christ's sufferings were insufficient; rather it is because of Christ's sufferings that we are given the final sanctification of purgatory in the first place! Purgatory is like a mat near your door. I presume that most people have a mat near their front door. Robert, I also think that your house is probably a beautiful house. Now why do most people have mats? So that they do not get any dirt or mud or anything icky like that into their beautiful house. They purify, they wipe the remnants of dirt, of imperfection of the shoe so that they can enter the beautiful love of cleanness that the house holds. Same way with purgatory, we need the purification of venial sin before we enter heaven. Purgatory is a condition of existence. Those who after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection. So that we can all be holy. and Holy is good
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Robert
Growing Guppy
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Ranch
Good to get started. I had a little trouble in finding the place.
So far the only Scripture you have used is the passage from Rev. 21:27 which is a description of the New Jerusalem on the new earth (Rev. 21:1) after the Millennial Kingdom has come to an end.
Most everybody thinks of the eternal state of the saved as being in heaven, but the bible says the new earth is where God will dwell forever with man.
Isaiah 9:7 says:
Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Jeremiah said that God would make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and write it on their hearts. He tells Ezekiel He would ultimately redeem all the tribes of Israel (Ezek. 37:15?25) and will set His tabernacle in their midst forevermore (vv. 26?28).
I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.
I cannot see where Rev. 21:27 has anything to do with purgatory.
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RANCHERO
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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I am just using Rev 21/27 as an example to show how you must be perfect in heaven. Do you agree that we all must be perfect? Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." God created us in his image, so we must be as perfect as he created us. He created us sinless. yet we are all fallible humans who sin. So after death, we must go through a purification to cleanse us of our sins, like wiping your feet on a door mat before you enter the house. I assume that there a two types of sin, mortal and venial, would you agree to that?
Also, would you say that after Adam’s sin, the gates of heaven were locked and no one could enter it until Jesus came?
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Robert
Growing Guppy
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Rev. 21:27 and Matt. 5:48 both are speaking of an earthly setting, instead of somewhere after death. Where do you get this after death thing about purification. If we are not pure when we die, we never will be. Paul says in Heb. 10:14 that in Christ’s one offering we have been perfected forever. So where is there anymore need for purification.
As to different sins, any sin is sin and will d.a.m.n one to eternal damnation. The only perfection is the righteousness of Christ put to my account. Paul said of our baptism:
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ we believe that we shall also live with Him. Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God (Rom. 6:5-10).
Paul in Rom. 4:3 uses Abraham as a model of our salvation because his faith was counted as righteousness and so will ours. The above passage from Rom. 6 explains that on God’s books our old sinful man is counted as having died with Christ and He is alive forevermore and we are in Him, not in the flesh.
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Robert
Growing Guppy
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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You asked: Also, would you say that after Adam’s sin, the gates of heaven were locked and no one could enter it until Jesus came?
with the exception of Enoch and Elijah, yes.
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RANCHERO
Goldfish
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 56
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Rev. 21:27 and Matt. 5:48 both are speaking of an earthly setting, instead of somewhere after death. Where do you get this after death thing about purification |
.I am only speaking about these as a way of proving that you must be holy in heaven, I realize that it has nothing to do with purgatory. But it does say that we must be holy.
| Quote: | | If we are not pure when we die, we never will be. |
Where in scripture does it say that?
| Quote: | Paul says in Heb. 10:14 that in Christ’s one offering we have been perfected forever. So where is there anymore need for purification.
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This does not contradict purgatory, we believe that it is in Christ’s one offering that we are perfected by his purification on us through purgatory.
| Quote: | | As to different sins, any sin is sin and will d.a.m.n one to eternal damnation. |
Your idea seems to be in contradiction with the holy scripture, 1st John, chapter 5. It says this, "If anyone sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal. I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal." Now, John is talking about two kinds of sin. One is mortal, that is deadly. Some sin kills. Other sin merely wounds. despicable. All sin is despicable to God and to those who are His children. But there is a distinction which John assumes. He doesn't feel any need to argue it, but he takes it for granted. James 1:14-15 also tells us that "each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death." St. James here is also making a distinction between beginning sin and mature sin, which brings death.
| Quote: | The only perfection is the righteousness of Christ put to my account. Paul said of our baptism:
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to
sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ we believe that we shall also live with Him. Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God (Rom. 6:5-10) |
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AMEN!!! we are purified through his love so that all our sins are gone.
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RANCHERO
Goldfish
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You asked: Also, would you say that after Adam’s sin, the gates of heaven were locked and no one could enter it until Jesus came?
with the exception of Enoch and Elijah, yes. |
So only Enoch and Elijah could go to heaven. Why, did they not need the loving death of Christ? Were they higher then Christ that they could get to Heaven by themselves? If you believe that only they could go to Heaven, where were Abraham, Moses, and Noah at before Christ came. They could not have been In Heaven because it was closed and by your own admission, only Enoch and Elijah could go. They were not Evil and dammed for Hell. They had to have been in a third place. After Adam's sin, the gates of Heaven were closed, and no one was allowed to enter (John 3:13) until Jesus Christ redeemed the human race and opened the gates once again. Where were the spirits of Moses and Elias, who appeared and spoke with Jesus at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3)? They could not have been in Heaven since it was closed, and they would have been lost had they been in hell. They had to have been in a third place. What about Lazarus? He was already dead four days (John 11:17) when Jesus arrived at his tomb. Where was his soul during those four days? It could not be heaven or hell for the same reasons as for Moses and Elias.
His soul had to have been in a third place. Some people would call this place paradise but by name it is still a middle place.
Purgatory is a great thing where God purifies you so that you might be the holiest you can ever be.
Can you tell me how God removes your sins if he does not purify you?
Purgatory is latin for purification
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RANCHERO
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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the one about the mortal, venial sins is at 1 John ch 5 verse 16
sorry about that
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Robert
Growing Guppy
Joined: 08 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Ranch quotes me:
Rev. 21:27 and Matt. 5:48 both are speaking of an earthly setting, instead of somewhere after death. Where do you get this after death thing about purification.
His answer:
I am only speaking about these as a way of proving that you must be holy in heaven, I realize that it has nothing to do with purgatory. But it does say that we must be holy.
I quoted from Heb. 10:14 where Paul said that by one offering we in Christ have been perfected forever and that our holiness is the very holiness of Christ because His righteousness has been put to our account. If He has perfected us by one offering forever, what’s this business about us needing more holiness. Paul in Rom. 6: 7 says when we died in Christ we were freed from sin.
Rancjh Quotes me:
If we are not pure when we die, we never will be.
Where in scripture does it say that?
Answer
The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23).
Quote:
Paul says in Heb. 10:14 that in Christ’s one offering we have been perfected forever. So where is there anymore need for purification.
This does not contradict purgatory, we believe that it is in Christ’s one offering that we are perfected by his purification on us through purgatory.
I can hardly believe your above remark. By His offering we have been perfected by his purification of us in purgatory? Is this what Rome teaches? Ranch, if we have been through faith in Christ been perfected forever, then what is this thing about getting sins burned out of us somewhere that the Scriptures know nothing about? Either our sins have been paid for or they have not. Perfected means perfect holiness; no sins at all.
Quote:
As to different sins, any sin is sin and will d.a.m.n one to eternal damnation.
Your idea seems to be in contradiction with the holy scripture, 1st John, chapter 5. It says this, "If anyone sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal. I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal." Now, John is talking about two kinds of sin. One is mortal, that is deadly. Some sin kills. Other sin merely wounds. despicable. All sin is despicable to God and to those who are His children. But there is a distinction which John assumes. He doesn't feel any need to argue it, but he takes it for granted. James 1:14-15 also tells us that "each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death." St. James here is also making a distinction between beginning sin and mature sin, which brings death.
When you quote from the book of John you are speaking of a time before Christ paid for sins and before we were sealed to Christ by the new birth in Christ. It is dangerous to make church doctrine from things spoken at a time about those who have not been born again. As to James making a distinction between “beginning sin and mature sin”, that’s a considerable stretch of what he said.
Quote:
The only perfection is the righteousness of Christ put to my account. Paul said of our baptism: For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ we believe that we shall also live with Him. Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God (Rom. 6:5-10)
AMEN!!! we are purified through his love so that all our sins are gone.
If you say all of our sins are gone, then what is all this talk about getting our sins burned out of us. You are getting me confused about what you believe. We are not purified through His love. We are not purified at all. We have been accounted as dead because of our sins but made alive in Christ who is risen from the dead to die no more.
I hope you will not think I am being to blunt Ranch; just trying to help. Perhaps it will help the reader as well as ourselves if we keep our posts a little shorter.
May the Lord bless
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RANCHERO
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Joined: 04 Aug 2005
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Answer
The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). |
Yes sin is death, death in hell. But there are venial sins that are not bad enough for hell. Remember what John says. Wait, you disregard John?
| Quote: | | When you quote from the book of John you are speaking of a time before Christ paid for sins and before we were sealed to Christ by the new birth in Christ. It is dangerous to make church doctrine from things spoken at a time about those who have not been born again. As to James making a distinction between “beginning sin and mature sin”, that’s a considerable stretch of what he said. |
you did not attack the scripture verse, you are attacking the whole book! There is a couple of things wrong with what you said there. First John wrote the Gospel around 96 AD. That is about 66 years after Jesus died and second, John was a born again. Should we disregard anything the old testament says? After all, it is before Christ came. We have the ten commandments, are those dangerous because Christ wasn’t there? No. since you agree that the bible is infallible, you must agree that the writers of the bible were infallible and so John was infallible. John agrees with the Catholic churches position of mortal/venial sin. So did St James. How was what he said a Stretch?
| Quote: | I can hardly believe your above remark. By His offering we have been perfected by his purification of us in purgatory? Is this what Rome teaches? Ranch, if we have been through faith in Christ been perfected forever, then what is this thing about getting sins burned out of us somewhere that the Scriptures know nothing about? Either our sins have been paid for or they have not. Perfected means perfect holiness; no sins at all.
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Yes that is what Rome teaches. here are great words from John Paul the great “ Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection.”
A lot of people have had faith in Christ, yet this does not mean that they have not sinned, everybody sins. No one is perfect, we become perfect when God purifies us in purgatory. We are perfect forever in Heaven.
| Quote: | If you say all of our sins are gone, then what is all this talk about getting our sins burned out of us.
You are getting me confused about what you believe. We are not purified through His love. We are not purified at all. We have been accounted as dead because of our sins but made alive in Christ who is risen from the dead to die no more. |
All our sins are gone when God purifies you. If we are not purified by his love, how do our sins come off? We are dead by sin but alive by Christ. Amen! great passages you use. You can not be dead by sin in Heaven so Christ must make You alive. I up hold that if I have sins that are not enough to get to hell but not heaven either. I will be made clean and Alive by Christ in purgatory!!
you dropped my entire argument about the gates of Heaven being closed and no one being able to enter it. Do you agree with me that Moses and Abraham and Noah had to be in a third state? If not, where were they?
How does God remove your sin if he does not purify you? And if you died right now, and you dirty with venial sins since we are all sinners, how would the work Jesus did on the cross remove the sins from your soul?
Good debate day
Good Night and God Bless
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Robert
Growing Guppy
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Quote:
Answer The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23).
[quote]Yes sin is death, death in hell. But there are venial sins that are not bad enough for hell.
Did you notice, Paul did not say sins, or as you say venial sins, but sin, which means any sin. Remember, Adam only sinned once to be condemned. As to sins other than those that can be forgiven the Lord said there is only one; blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Lord said that sin would not be forgiven neither in the age (aion) to come. Since He was offering the kingdom, the age to come was the kingdom on earth that is yet to come.
| Quote: | | Remember what John says. Wait, you disregard John? |
When you quote from the book of John you are speaking of a time before Christ paid for sins and before we were sealed to Christ by the new birth in Christ. It is dangerous to make church doctrine from things spoken at a time about those who have not been born again. As to James making a distinction between “beginning sin and mature sin”, that’s a considerable stretch of what he said.
[quote]you did not attack the scripture verse, you are attacking the whole book! There is a couple of things wrong with what you said there. First John wrote the Gospel around 96 AD. That is about 66 years after Jesus died and second, John was a born again. Should we disregard anything the old testament says? After all, it is before Christ came. We have the ten commandments, are those dangerous because Christ wasn’t there? No. since you agree that the bible is infallible, you must agree that the writers of the bible were infallible and so John was infallible. John agrees with the Catholic churches position of mortal/venial sin. So did St James. How was what he said a Stretch?
Yes John wrote after the cross and he was born again, but he wrote of things before the cross which was still during the Mosaic Law under which the Lord taught. In spite of 2000 years of the nonsense of calling Matt., Mk., Lk., and Jo. NT, the New Covenant did not begin until after the resurrection.
As to disregarding what the OT says, I would apply what was said to the people it was spoken to and in the dispensation it was written. The Ten Commandments were for the Jews and was the Mosaic Covenant of law (Ex. 34:28; Duet. 4:13, 9:9. We are not under the law but under grace.
I said: I can hardly believe your above remark. By His offering we have been perfected by his purification of us in purgatory? Is this what Rome teaches? Ranch, if we have been through faith in Christ been perfected forever, then what is this thing about getting sins burned out of us somewhere that the Scriptures know nothing about? Either our sins have been paid for or they have not. Perfected means perfect holiness; no sins at all.
You say: Yes that is what Rome teaches. here are great words from John Paul the great “ Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection.” A lot of people have had faith in Christ, yet this does not mean that they have not sinned, everybody sins. No one is perfect, we become perfect when God purifies us in purgatory. We are perfect forever in Heaven.
Answer
What you are saying is, that Christ’s substitutionary death did not pay for all our sins but only part of them and the rest have to be burned out of us. Well, If we can have part of them burned out, then it must be possible to burn all of them out by staying a little longer and we wouldn’t even need a Savior.
You nor John Paul still haven’t showed where purgatory is at in the Scriptures.
You quote me:
If you say all of our sins are gone, then what is all this talk about getting our sins burned out of us. You are getting me confused about what you believe. We are not purified through His love. We are not purified at all. We have been accounted as dead because of our sins but made alive in Christ who is risen from the dead to die no more.
All our sins are gone when God purifies you.
You have completely missed the payment of Christ for our sins. You do not understand or refuse to accept the truth as I showed you from Rom. 6 that we have been crucified with Christ and our old man is on God’s books dead. What you are trying to do is get the natural man into heaven when He is dead because the wages of sin is death. We have been born from above are a new creation in Christ. Ranch, what you are trying to do is clean up a dead man. I hesitate to say it , but you have completely missed the way of salvation if you think Christ did not pay for your sins.
I up hold that if I have sins that are not enough to get to hell but not heaven either. I will be made clean and Alive by Christ in purgatory!!
You still have not showed us where purgatory is and much less where Christ is going to clean us up in fire. If you are going to teach people going into fire for cleansing, then the least you could do is tell them how long they will be there. Does one on sin equal 1 year, six months, etc.?
you dropped my entire argument about the gates of Heaven being closed and no one being able to enter it. Do you agree with me that Moses and Abraham and Noah had to be in a third state? If not, where were they?
I do not. They were delivered from Sheol when Christ ascended.
How does God remove your sin if he does not purify you? And if you died right now, and you dirty with venial sins since we are all sinners, how would the work Jesus did on the cross remove the sins from your soul?
Go back to the earlier post where Paul and I explained to you from Rom. 6 that the old man of sin which you keep trying to purify has already died because of his sins when he was buried with Christ.
I must insist that you get back to the original subject of where is purgatory in the Scriptures? After all the subject was “is purgatory real” and you said you would prove it from the bible.
May the Lord Bless
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Robert
Growing Guppy
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ranch
nothing is said about anyone else besides Enoch and Elisah going to heaven. However, God can do whatever He chooses and all things are possible with God.
As to the possiblity of a third place for them, I will say one thing, you sure have a good imagination. But the imagination proves nothing. You still have to show me purgatory in the Word and especially where it is said that Christ even so much hints of such a plece; much less uses it.
May the Lord bless
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RANCHERO
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Joined: 04 Aug 2005
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Did you notice, Paul did not say sins, or as you say venial sins, but sin, which means any sin. Remember, Adam only sinned once to be condemned. As to sins other than those that can be forgiven the Lord said there is only one; blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Lord said that sin would not be forgiven neither in the age (aion) to come. Since He was offering the kingdom, the age to come was the kingdom on earth that is yet to come. |
Paul had to have known what John said about Mortal and venial sin, do you believe Paul more then John? I like that you brought up that passage, it relates to purgatory. That verse implies that some sins can be forgiven when we die, we can not be forgiven our sins in hell and we have no sins in Heaven, this has to mean that there is another place where sins can be forgiven.
| Quote: | | Yes John wrote after the cross and he was born again, but he wrote of things before the cross which was still during the Mosaic Law under which the Lord taught. In spite of 2000 years of the nonsense of calling Matt., Mk., Lk., and Jo. NT, the New Covenant did not begin until after the resurrection. |
So do you disregard all that John said? John is an infallible writer of the infallible bible, do you think that the bible is not infallible? Then you must agree what with John says. And he knows there is a difference between mortal and venial sin.
| Quote: |
As to disregarding what the OT says, I would apply what was said to the people it was spoken to and in the dispensation it was written. The Ten Commandments were for the Jews and was the Mosaic Covenant of law (Ex. 34:28; Duet. 4:13, 9:9. We are not under the law but under grace |
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So we do not have to follow the ten commandments? My point is that we must believe and follow all the bible, the old and new testaments.
My point in preserving the truth of John is to show that there is indeed mortal and venial sins. Venial sins can be forgiven in purgatory, mortal sins will lead to hell!!
| Quote: | Answer
What you are saying is, that Christ’s substitutionary death did not pay for all our sins but only part of them and the rest have to be burned out of us. Well, If we can have part of them burned out, then it must be possible to burn all of them out by staying a little longer and we wouldn’t even need a Savior. You nor John Paul still haven’t showed where purgatory is at in the Scriptures. |
You are pulling a straw men attack, Robert. Christ died for our sin. The suffering we experience in sanctification in this life is something we receive because of Christ's sacrifice for us. His sufferings paid the price for us to be sanctified, and his sufferings paid the price for the whole of our sanctification -- both the initial and final parts. Thus it is because of Christ's sacrifice that we receive the final sanctification in the first place! If he had not suffered, we would not be given the final sanctification (or the glorification to which it leads), but would go straight to hell. Thus purgatory does not imply Christ's sufferings were insufficient; rather it is because of Christ's sufferings that we are given the final sanctification of purgatory in the first place! In less you don’t believe that we don’t have temporal punishments, all I can see for you to believe is purgatory.
| Quote: | | You have completely missed the payment of Christ for our sins. You do not understand or refuse to accept the truth as I showed you from Rom. 6 that we have been crucified with Christ and our old man is on God’s books dead. What you are trying to do is get the natural man into heaven when He is dead because the wages of sin is death. We have been born from above are a new creation in Christ. Ranch, what you are trying to do is clean up a dead man. I hesitate to say it , but you have completely missed the way of salvation if you think Christ did not pay for your sins. |
Christ died for our sins, that is true. so that we may go to heaven. I can not set up an account on Christ by steeling, lying and throwing a rock at a church window. I can’t just do that and say “oh, it’s okay, I am paid for” we still might have to face temporal punishment, this punishment is okay by God because it helps us become stronger.
| Quote: | | You still have not showed us where purgatory is and much less where Christ is going to clean us up in fire. If you are going to teach people going into fire for cleansing, then the least you could do is tell them how long they will be there. Does one on sin equal 1 year, six months, etc.? |
No one knows exactly how many days are in purgatory. Can you tell me where Heaven is, then purgatory is right before it.
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VIVA CHRIST!!!!!
Cristo estableció la iglesia católica hace 2005 años!!! |
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RANCHERO
Goldfish
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 56
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I do not. They were delivered from Sheol when Christ ascended. |
Now, tell me, what is sheol, so you agree that there was a place that was not heaven or hell. Cool, so why don’t you believe it know, where in the bible does it say that this place is gone. You do believe in purgatory, you just call it Sheol. You say I have an imagination, not as much as the imagination God created for us. If you believe in sheol, then that is a third place. Don’t deny it, you supplied it.
| Quote: | Go back to the earlier post where Paul and I explained to you from Rom. 6 that the old man of sin which you keep trying to purify has already died because of his sins when he was buried with Christ.
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So, does God cover up the sin that you do? My question is “if you just stole a pencil” was that okay? Did God die so that you can steal that pencil and still go to heaven, or are you going to be punished?
Before I begin offering scriptural references for purgatory, let me just say that just because the word purgatory doesn’t appear in the bible, doesn’t mean that it is not in scripture. The word trinity is nowhere in the bible, yet we believe it, why? Because the bible gives us pieces of the puzzle, when we put them together, we get the whole picture. Just like purgatory.
Well the first example of purgatory in the bible is what you said by our own admission, Sheol. This place was not heaven or hell, it was somewhere else. Also how did only Enoch and Elijah get to heaven, did they not need Jesus?
Then it talks about how Jesus spoke to the spirits in prison. In 1Peter 3:19, Christ preached to the spirits in prison. What spirits? What prison? We will become pure spirits only after we die, so the spirits have to be the spirits of the dead. Prison cannot mean Heaven, and souls in hell are lost forever. Prison must mean a third place.
GOD BLESS
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VIVA CHRIST!!!!!
Cristo estableció la iglesia católica hace 2005 años!!! |
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