Will all mankind finally be saved? theseldomscene vs. Apoc

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

Resolved:

The Bible teaches that some human beings will never be saved.

Proponent: Tss

Opponent: Apoc

Tss, you may present your opening when ready.

Looking forward to a fruitful exchange.

Note by Nobby

These are the rules you both agreed too:

Here are some proposed guideines for the debate.

#1-No questions.

#2-No insults. In fact, calling each other by our names is as personal as we should get.

#3-No long copy and pastes.

#4-Present arguments as tersely and as coherently as possible. (Get to the point.)
#5-No more than 10 pages.

Apoc,
I trust you'll engage me in a civil and no-nonsense manner.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth."

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

give me some more time my friend. i have not forgotten you. please feelfree to go a head and post.

i look forward to the war, i mean debate. bring your sharpest sword and pack a lunch. in HIS love. jm

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

Ok, let me initiate the discussion by formulating an argument that I think is at the very core of my position.

The Logic of Love.

I would like to begin by briefly considering what I gather to be some essential characteristics of Divine Love (AGAPE), as this concept is defined in the New Testament. Love, I propose, involves the will to bring about that which is in the best interests of the beloved; it is God's loving intention to bring those He loves into unity with Him. I further propose that such a union entails the supreme happiness of God's loved ones, and that this true bliss involves loving others as we love ourselves (John 15:10-12). It is, moreover, the inclusive nature of Love that any good or ill done unto the one who is loved is also a good or ill done unto the one who loves (Matt 25:34-45).

With these considerations in mind, I also suggest that God cannot love one human being without loving everyone else, and that God cannot save one person without ultimately saving all persons. For, it is evident that God could never do what is best for you or I without doing what's best for those who we love. Were eternal damnation or any other form of irreparable harm to befall any of our loved ones, our joy and our well-being would be incomplete.

The Nature of Godly Punishment

The Bible declares that God is Love (1 John 4:8 ). This is a declaration of essence, just as the proverbial phrases “God is Light” and “God is Spirit” hint at the very essence of God. In Him there is no darkness; in God there is no opposition to Spirit; in Him there is no absence of love. All that God does is both just and loving, and every punishment given by God will be an expression of these fundamental qualities of His nature. It will never do to contend that God does not love all persons with a perfect form of Love, just as it will never do to contend that God does not deal justly do all persons, for such contentions would undermine the very integrity of God as revealed in scriptures such as 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 and Galatians 6:7. Consequently, the punishments that God administers upon any human being must be rooted in His love for that human being, and seeing that God’s love for a person would be opposed to any infliction of irreparable harm upon that person, it follows that God’s punishments are corrective and never entail eternal damnation.

Perhaps one of the strongest evidences that God’s judgments are for the good of the persons being judged is found in Paul’s discourse throughout Romans 9-11. In this discourse we find that God destroys the “vessels of wrath” for the express purpose of redeeming them; we find that God elects a remnant as a means to eventually saving the non-elect (Romans 11:32).
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth."

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

as it is written, jacob whom I loved, easu whom I hated.

before they were born. and had done nothing good or bad so HIS election would stand.

the vessel of wrath are to show HIS patience to us who are HIS vessels prepared afore time(predestined) for glory. their(the vessels of wrath) destination says nothing about glory.

all isreal shall be saved. but the bible clearly teaches that not all are isreal but we of the gentile tribe also who believe are grafted in. making us isreal, the seed of abraham, by faith. to ab's seed was the promise given. of inherting the good land and the life that comes by the SPIRIT.

those whom HE has called HE predestined to be conformed to the image of HIS SON. the image of eternal life. not all are called, just many.
and only a few are chosen. there is no life mentioned for those that die wiith out HIM. they were appointed to destruction, per rom. 9.

it is impossible for GOD to lie. by HIS words, HE does hate somethings.

i find myself without a bible at this time and location or i'd offer more. GOD bless you. jim.

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

for i would not brethern that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to isreal, until the fullness of the gentiles be come in. for there is no difference between the jew and the greek: the same LORD over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. for whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD, shall be saved. and the scripture, foreseeing that GOD would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto abraham saying in thee shall all nations to be blessed, so they which are of faith are blessed with faithful abraham. now to abraham and his seed were the promises made. he saith not, and to thy seeds as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is CHRIST. but the scripture hath concluded *all* under sin, that the promise by faith of JESUS CHRIST might be given to them that believe. for GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten SON, that believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. for GOD sent HIS SON not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through HIM might be saved. he that believeth on HIM is not condemed: but he that believth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten SON of GOD. he that believeth not the SON shall not see life; but the wrath of GOD abideth on him. there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in CHRIST JESUS., who walk not after the flesh, but after the SPIRIT. for the law of the SPIRIT of life in CHRIST JESUS hath made me free from the law of sin and death. as HE saith to moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. so then, it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy. therefore hath HE mercy on whom HE will have mercy, and whom HE will HE hardeneth. for whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HID SON, that HE might be the first born among many brethern. moreover, whom HE did predestinate, them he also called: and whom He called, him HE also justified; and whom HE justified, them HE also glorified. for ye are *all* the children of GOD, by faith in CHRIST JESUS. for as many of you as have been baptised into CHRIST have put on CHRIST. and if ye be CHRIST's, then are ye abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise. and so *all* isreal shall be saved: as it is written, there shall come out of sion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. as concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the FATHER"S sakes. for the gifts and the calling of GOD are without repentance. for as ye in times past have not believed GOD, yet now have obtined mercy through their unbelief: even so have these also now not believe, that through your mercy, they also may obtain mercy . for GOD hath concluded *all* to unbelief, that HE might have mercy upon *all*.

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

p.s. i demand scripture that says or even hints that GOD did not literally hate esua.

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

Jim,

Esau is used as a type of that portion of Israel which was hardened and blinded.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth."

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

apoc,
wrong. esua is used as an example of those that GOD rejected in HIS divine election. the same with pharoah.

like jacob was used to show GOD'S unmerited favor. not just of the jews, but the gentiles also, as spoken in Hosea..

i missed you bro. love in CHRIST. jim.

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

jimmy,

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

Nobby,

I'm done with this. Could you lock it?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth."

apocatastasis · King of the Jungle Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 1827

nobby, could you delete the time and eternity debate between meto and I? It is just a waste of space, as we never even got around to debating.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth."

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

why apoc, your done so you want it locked? childish at best.

anyway,
wrong on all points you are. but nice try.

you've obviously not read ob. or you'd see you're wrong

isreal. hardened. that who it is talking of in context. all who believe are isreal and are hardened till we are saveed by grace. all isreal are concluded to unbelief so HE can have mercy on all. please read the word before debating it.

once again you missed it.

ok nobby. you can lock it now. i'm done here also.

this was easy.

p.s. pharoah was hardened and received no mercy. you are wrong again. doesn't that get old?

my last words.

THERE IS NO SOLID SCRIPTURE IN CONTEXT TO SUPPORT THE LIE THAT IS THE U.R. DOCTRINE.

Nobby