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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well, is ther enot sexual immorality in all persons tainted with sin? Is Adam King the only person on Earth who does not entertain lustful thoughts? |
Quite the contrary, I may be the 'chief' of all...
| Quote: | | Paul himself summed up the thrust of his meaning by saying that nothing unclean will inherit the kingdom of God. |
Yes he did. He said nothing unjust, nothing unclean will inherit the Kingdom.
BUT THEN! he says that this is what they WERE, they are now JUST and now CLEAN (as they have been washed).
The christian is no longer unjust or unclean...need we rehash that argument again. You have said yourself that the Christian is declared righteous. They are righteous.
To say that now the Christian is unrighteous, after having been declared as such, is to deny the righteousness given us by the LORD. Do you deny this righteousness? Do you deny that you are now righteous?
| Quote: | | Again, not to be coy, but what do you mean "how"? |
Let me put it this way Apoc: The American people are greedy. The French people are cowardly. The Puritan people were devout. The Corinthian people were immoral. The people of Sodom were wicked. The Egyptian people were conquerers.
Would you doubt that when I said 'people' in all of these instances that I was referring to the person who is American, who is French...
Or would you assume that when I said people, I was not referring to the person that is American, but rather the greed that is in Americans? Or I was not referring to the person that is French, but rather the cowardness in the French?
If you would read me saying American people, as referring to the person that is American, why then do you say that when Paul says the immoral person, he is not referring to the person that is immoral, but rather the immorality in the person?
What within this text gives warrant to such an assumption?
| Quote: | | It is not at all uncommon to speak of an aspect of a person or thing by figuratively speaking of such in terms of the whole thing or person. |
It is not uncommon. But it is more common (to the degree as to be considered almost rule) that when someone says the ____ person, they are not referring to the ____ within the person, but rather they person that is _____.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Yes he did. He said nothing unjust, nothing unclean will inherit the Kingdom.
BUT THEN! he says that this is what they WERE, they are now JUST and now CLEAN (as they have been washed). |
He sure did, but does this mean that he contradicts himself? As you would have it, Paul says that that which is unclean is righteous. This is, needless to say, nonsense. It is apparent, then, that Paul was speaking figuratively; it is obvious that, insofar as our true nature has overcome our false nature, we have passed from death to life and from uncleansliness to purity.
| Quote: | | The christian is no longer unjust or unclean...need we rehash that argument again. You have said yourself that the Christian is declared righteous. They are righteous. |
And what did I say the christian is? The term 'christian' is a metynomy.
| Quote: | Let me put it this way Apoc: The American people are greedy. The French people are cowardly. The Puritan people were devout. The Corinthian people were immoral. The people of Sodom were wicked. The Egyptian people were conquerers.
Would you doubt that when I said 'people' in all of these instances that I was referring to the person who is American, who is French...
Or would you assume that when I said people, I was not referring to the person that is American, but rather the greed that is in Americans? Or I was not referring to the person that is French, but rather the cowardness in the French? |
I would assume that you are speaking in generalities; I could only reasonably suppose that you were referring to a specific trait which generally characterizes each group of people. Then again, my interpretation of your statements would have to take into consideration the context - I would have to consider the style of your writing, for instance.
But let us go back to the bible...
| Quote: | | If you would read me saying American people, as referring to the person that is American, why then do you say that when Paul says the immoral person, he is not referring to the person that is immoral, but rather the immorality in the person? |
'Cause we are all immoral. You yourself have admitted to entertainign immoral thoughts.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He sure did, but does this mean that he contradicts himself? As you would have it, Paul says that that which is unclean is righteous. This is, needless to say, nonsense. It is apparent, then, that Paul was speaking figuratively; it is obvious that, insofar as our true nature has overcome our false nature, we have passed from death to life and from uncleansliness to purity. |
Explain to me how he would be contradicting himself.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Paul would be contradicting himself were he to argue that we are currently, as a whole person, unclean while also arguing that we are currently, as a whole person, clean.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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He is not arguing such. Rather, he is arguing that we are currently as a whole person declared righteous; whereas, we were before as a whole person declared to be as unrighteous as we were.[/list]
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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So are you saying that, even though you actually are sinful, you are not seen by such by God?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly. God does not see my wretched state, He only sees the perfect state of Christ.
To be justified by God is simply a declaration.
We have account of man justifying God (Luke 7:29), would we erroneously say that their declaration of God changed the nature of God in any way? Hopefully you wouldn't be that wacky. Likewise, this word used here and by Paul to state the act of God whereby He declares us righteous is one denoting the judicial act of declaring a title upon something.
God has declared me as righteous as Christ, despite the fact that right now, I am still filthy.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:03 am Post subject: |
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So, even though you are sexually immoral, 1 Corinthians 6 does not speak of you? Perhaps you could show me some verses which state that God is blind to the reality of your sin while He is keenly aware of the sin of the non-elect. I mean, if we are to take the Bible seriously when t says that Jesus died for all mankind, and if we are to be consistent with your reasoning, then wouldn't God in fact turn a blind eye to all sin? Or is God partial?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5151
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:13 pm Post subject: Note to posters |
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Hi apocatastasis & metothezero, Are you through with your thread?
If so I will lock it. There have been no posts since, 08 Aug 2005 10:03 .
Let me know. If You don't answer I will go on & lock it. 
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Much Love Nobby
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Nobby,
I'm not sure if meto wants to continue it. PM him, or email him.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5151
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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apoc, I sent him an e-mail today.
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Much Love Nobby
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