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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Let me try to be brief and to the point.
What I have suggested thus far is that, as sinners, we shall all be destroyed. We will cease to be sinners. In being transformed, the old nature perishes and the new nature is unveiled. The false will be abolished and the true will emerge.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Brevity is fun. Let me attempt to show why you are incorrect.
| Quote: | | as sinners, we shall all be destroyed. |
If you say that we shall be destroyed, as sinners, then you must necessarily equivocate one what it means to be 'destroyed'. If a building is destroyed it is no more. If a tree is destroyed it is no more. If a person is destroyed it is no more. However, if you say that a person, as a sinner, is destroyed, then you must say that the person is not destroyed in the same sense that the building and tree were, but rather it is 'destroyed' in the sense of no longer functioning as a sinner. Its function was destroyed, it is given a new function. But it is not 'destroyed' in the same manner that a tree or building is destroyed, and therefore not destroyed in the usual definition of what it means to be destroyed.
| Quote: | | We will cease to be sinners |
Yes, but being a 'sinner' is the function that we perform. If we are destroyed, then we cease to be; not simply to be sinners, but to be.
Again, as I said before about the word destroyed. If you say that we cease to be sinners, then you must equivocate on what is generally thought of when it is said that something has 'ceased'. If a tree ceases to be, it is no longer in existence. If a building ceases to be, it is no longer in existence. If you say that a tree or a building cease to be a tree or building (but rather are something else), then you must say that their cessation is not a cessation of them, but rather a cessation of their function as a tree or building.
| Quote: | | In being transformed, the old nature perishes and the new nature is unveiled. The false will be abolished and the true will emerge. |
This is what must be said, the old nature perishes, but the man does not perish. The new nature is unveiled, but it is the given to the same being.
If we say that a person is destroyed or ceases to be then we must say that they are no longer. However, if we say that their old nature is destroyed or that they cease to be a sinner, then we are not saying that the person is destroyed or ceases to be, rather we are saying that the function of being a sinner or the possession of an old nature is what ceases to be or is destroyed.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:57 am Post subject: |
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then why not start having fun, meto? 
| Quote: | | If you say that we shall be destroyed, as sinners, then you must necessarily equivocate one what it means to be 'destroyed'. If a building is destroyed it is no more. If a tree is destroyed it is no more. If a person is destroyed it is no more. However, if you say that a person, as a sinner, is destroyed, then you must say that the person is not destroyed in the same sense that the building and tree were, but rather it is 'destroyed' in the sense of no longer functioning as a sinner. Its function was destroyed, it is given a new function. But it is not 'destroyed' in the same manner that a tree or building is destroyed, and therefore not destroyed in the usual definition of what it means to be destroyed. |
I might have a diferent sense of destruction in mind than you, meto, but I never equivocated. Insofar as a person is a sinner, they are called sinners. The destruction of a sinner, then, is the destruction of that which is false and sinful in a person. In other words, verses such as philipians 3:19 are using a device called synecdoche.
| Quote: |
Yes, but being a 'sinner' is the function that we perform. If we are destroyed, then we cease to be; not simply to be sinners, but to be. |
Being a sinner is more than just sinning, it is being of a sinful nature; the nature cannot be reduced to the actions which originate in the nature. If we are destroyed in the absolute sense, then I would agree that we will cease to be. I am arguing that the sense of destruction spoken of in philippians 3:19 is not absolute in the sense of the whole person ceasing to exist, but is absolute in the sense of the annihilation of the carnal mind. Again, we are dealing with typical biblical metynomy.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The destruction of a sinner, then, is the destruction of that which is false and sinful in a person. |
Are you saying that the destruction of a person (who is a sinner) is the destruction of that which is false and sinful WITHIN the person? As in the person is not actually destroyed, rather that which is IN the person is destroyed? Is that you final answer?
Synecdoche? Metonymy? Are you trying to impress me with big words? Umm...well, I'm a supralapsarian and you're not! 
| Quote: | | In other words, verses such as philipians 3:19 are using a device called synecdoche. |
Let us consider whether Philippians 3:19 is a use of this synecdoche.
| Quote: | | Phi 3:19 Their end is destruction; their god is their stomach; their glory is in their shame. They are focused on earthly things, but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. |
Let us see. Paul says that THEY are DESTROYED, but WE are CITIZENS IN HEAVEN.
You are saying that Paul uses a synechoche for THEY meaning that it is not the whole of THEY that are destroyed, but rather a part of them (specifically that which is sinful). Now, since Paul uses such a parallel between the two, saying that THEY are DESTROYED, then saying but WE are CITIZENS. Why then would we not assume that Paul continues this usage of a synecdoche further when he mentions WE? Meaning that just as the destruction of THEY is not a complete DESTRUCTION of their entire being, so the citizenship of WE is not a complete citizenship. Why would we not continue his parallel out and say that this verse in no way signifies that we in our entirety will spend eternity within heaven? If only that which is sinful will be destroyed, and the person will not be; why then would we not say that only that which is good will be within heaven and the person will not be?
What I'm asking is why do you not continue your thought out and say that just as the person is not destroyed (only that which is IN the person); so the person will not be within heaven (only that which is IN the person)??
N
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Hello my supralapsarian foe, I mean, friend.
| Quote: | | What I'm asking is why do you not continue your thought out and say that just as the person is not destroyed (only that which is IN the person); so the person will not be within heaven (only that which is IN the person)?? |
Paul's use of synecdoche includes we and they, to be sure. The "they" is the carnal mind in everyone; it is the old man of sin, the false self. The "we" is the true nature which resides in everyone, waiting to consume the sin nature so that we may become whole.
Not buying it?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Phi 3:18-20 For I have often told you, and now say again with tears, that many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. (19) Their end is destruction; their god is their stomach; their glory is in their shame. They are focused on earthly things, (20) but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. |
Let us replace the words with the meanings you have posited.
| Quote: | | Phi 3:18-20 For I have often told you, and now say again with tears, that the false nature live[s] as enemies of the cross of Christ. (19) the false nature['s] end is destruction; the false nature['s] god is the false nature['s] stomach; the false nature['s] glory is in the false['s] shame. The false nature are[is] focused on earthly things, (20) but the true nature ['s] citizenship is in heaven, from which the true nature also eagerly wait[s] for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. |
Let us sum it up a little. Paul says that the false nature within everyone will be destroyed, but the true nature within everyone has citizenship in heaven.
That is great...now, where is the hope that I will get to go to heaven. Paul says my nature will go, but what about ME???
I apparently consist of a true nature and a false nature. One is destroyed and one goes to heaven...what nature then do I have? What am I left with? Where do I spend eternity?? Your doctrine reduces the hope of my eternal residence within heaven to nothing more than a belief that part of me will reside there. What is more, it leaves great confusion as to where exactly I (who possessed these two natures) will spent eternity.
Not buying it at all. Paul says that they (who possess false natures) will be destroyed and we (who possess true natures) have citizenship in heaven.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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hey meto,
Perhaps this will clear some things up.
As creatures tainted with sin and as beings with an inherited ambivalence, we await in hope for our complete transformation and vivification in Christ.
I fail to see how my view does not account for our need for perfection and wholeness. Could you expound on your concern?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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No doubt we are creatures tainted with sin and beings with an inherited ambivalence. There is no denying that we await in hope for our complete transformation and vivification in Christ. You have stated rightly that we are in need of perfection and wholeness.
That is not my concern.
My concern is your addressal of a Pauline passage, Philippians 3:19 to be specific. You have stated that when Paul says that 'their end is destruction', he is using 'their' as a synechoche for not the complete man, rather only the depraved nature within the man that will be destroyed. You have likewise stated that when Paul states 'our citizenship is in heaven', Paul is likewise using a synechoche speaking of 'our' being the true nature within everyone.
My concern is a naturally formulated conclusion from the ideas you have proposed. If 'their' is the sinful nature within everyone (which will be destroyed) and 'our' is the true nature within everyone, where then do you place the eternal abode of the 'everyone' who possess the 'their' (sinful nature) and the 'our' (true nature).
Address this point, it is pivitol in whether we can accept this passage as you claim it is to be accepted.
Is that expounded enough?
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:38 am Post subject: |
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Hey Adam,
| Quote: |
If 'their' is the sinful nature within everyone (which will be destroyed) and 'our' is the true nature within everyone, where then do you place the eternal abode of the 'everyone' who possess the 'their' (sinful nature) and the 'our' (true nature). |
If I understand your question, my answer is simply that the sin nature will be annihilated and the inward man will reside in unity with God..in heaven, if you will. Does this address your concern, or have I failed to understand your question?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Again, we are truly identified with Christ.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If I understand your question, my answer is simply that the sin nature will be annihilated and the inward man will reside in unity with God..in heaven, if you will. |
I do not understand why you are not understanding my question.
You have said that 'the "they" is the carnal mind in everyone; it is the old man of sin, the false self.' From Paul we know that this 'they' is destroyed (their end is destruction).
What then happens to everyone that the carnal mind is IN?
You have likewise said that 'the "we" is the true nature which resides in everyone, waiting to consume the sin nature'. We know from Paul that this true nature is a citizen of heaven (our citizenship is in heaven).
What then happens to everyone that the true nature RESIDES IN?
Paul says that their end is destruction...but our citizenship is in heaven. You say that 'their' is the false self/sin nature that is IN everyone and that 'our' is the inward man/true nature that is IN everyone. Therefore, one would naturally ask, if the false self/sin nature is destroyed and the inward man/true nature goes to heaven what then happens to everyone that these things were in?
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What then happens to everyone that the carnal mind is IN? |
They are purified and transformed into a new creature.
What will happen to Metothezero when his carnal mind is destroyed?
| Quote: | | What then happens to everyone that the true nature RESIDES IN? |
They are purified and transformed into a new creature.
Can you predict my next question? 
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:01 am Post subject: |
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What then is your next question?
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if ya really need me to ask...
What will happen to Metothezero when his carnal mind is destroyed?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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First, define 'carnal mind' and then 'destroyed'...
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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