atheism

puffer · Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:03 pm Post subject: atheism

Presently interacting with a young apparently (intellectual)self proclaimed atheist. Have perused writers on the "natural" evidences of a God but still fill I need help. All sincere input appreciated.

Van · Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 7:10 pm Post subject: atheism

My experience in dealing with atheists is that they have already seen most if not all the evidence for God and cannot, in their minds, rationally accept it.

I think there are three lines of evidence for God, but no proof which is the usual requirement asserted by atheists.

General revelation, the heavens declare the glory of God, speaks to me and many others of God's awesome greatness. I see evidence for design, but an atheist would say I impose my perception on a truly random universe.

Special revelation, the Bible provides evidence for God, and I accept it as reliable and accurate enough for God's purpose. Atheists reject the Bible, considering it a product of culture and the invention of men.

Testimony of Believers, people you know and trust share the very real experiences of God being active in their lives. Atheists would say we are self-deluded.

I have never sensed that atheists are being drawn by the Father to the Son. Their interest seems in justifying their decision to reject Jesus by pointing out their decision was mandated by their superior intellect and reason.

MPI has posted several papers on this discussion board, such as Why your God is impossible, and a Humanist view of God or some such, and together they present just about all the commonly seen arguments made my athiests to undermine faith in God.

If my experience holds true for you, when you present your evidence, you will get these same arguments, as if the atheist just came up with them and instead of considering your evidence, the atheist will attempt to show why it is invalid and put your faith on trial.

Anyway, time will tell; Good luck and God bless

Nobby · Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 7:38 pm Post subject: atheism

Hi puffer,
Welcome to our board. We have a great group here! I believe you will like it!

Enjoy,
Nobby

Phinehas · Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 7:54 am Post subject: atheism

Hi puffer, and welcome!

It's been quite some time since I've had to deal with a studied atheist. The last one was a roommate many years ago and he eventually came to the Lord, but he was a seeker and frequently initiated by asking me questions about how I could do this or believe that.

Just a friendly reminder (because I, myself, forget to do this from time to time): Ask God FIRST to help you in this endeavor. I have found that, when I do this, God is faithful to honor my request with truly relevant information. By going to others first, I'm showing God that I don't believe He will get me the information I need. I am placing my trust in people rather than in God. All this being said, you may have already done that. Because I so frequently make this mistake, I present this here.

Shalom,
Phin

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“When they chose new gods, war came to the city gates, and not a shield or spear was seen among forty thousand in Israel. My heart is with Israel's princes, with the willing volunteers among the people. Praise the LORD!” Judges 5:8-9

puffer · Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:04 pm Post subject: atheism

quote:
Originally posted by Phinehas:
Hi puffer, and welcome!

It's been quite some time since I've had to deal with a studied atheist. The last one was a roommate many years ago and he eventually came to the Lord, but he was a seeker and frequently initiated by asking me questions about how I could do this or believe that.

Just a friendly reminder (because I, myself, forget to do this from time to time): Ask God FIRST to help you in this endeavor. I have found that, when I do this, God is faithful to honor my request with truly relevant information. By going to others first, I'm showing God that I don't believe He will get me the information I need. I am placing my trust in people rather than in God. All this being said, you may have already done that. Because I so frequently make this mistake, I present this here.

Shalom,
Phin

Much appreciated Phinehas: Of Course you are correct and such has been done. I realize that not every one will be saved and that not everyone who proclaims to the an atheist really is. As you have suggested, I try to do all things in the name of Christ, for all else is useless and doomed to failure. Your thoughts are well received, God bless.

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puffer · Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:12 pm Post subject: atheism

quote:
Originally posted by Van:
My experience in dealing with atheists is that they have already seen most if not all the evidence for God and cannot, in their minds, rationally accept it.

I think there are three lines of evidence for God, but no proof which is the usual requirement asserted by atheists.

General revelation, the heavens declare the glory of God, speaks to me and many others of God's awesome greatness. I see evidence for design, but an atheist would say I impose my perception on a truly random universe.

Special revelation, the Bible provides evidence for God, and I accept it as reliable and accurate enough for God's purpose. Atheists reject the Bible, considering it a product of culture and the invention of men.

Testimony of Believers, people you know and trust share the very real experiences of God being active in their lives. Atheists would say we are self-deluded.

I have never sensed that atheists are being drawn by the Father to the Son. Their interest seems in justifying their decision to reject Jesus by pointing out their decision was mandated by their superior intellect and reason.

MPI has posted several papers on this discussion board, such as Why your God is impossible, and a Humanist view of God or some such, and together they present just about all the commonly seen arguments made my athiests to undermine faith in God.

If my experience holds true for you, when you present your evidence, you will get these same arguments, as if the atheist just came up with them and instead of considering your evidence, the atheist will attempt to show why it is invalid and put your faith on trial.

Anyway, time will tell; Good luck and God bless

Van, you have concretized what I have been surmizing and seemingly are correct. The replies from this person so far have been exactly as you have described.
I surely will leave any success in the hands of Almighty God and keep looking for a *Person of Asian Descent* in the armour. David had such a little stone but the giant had such a big head and eventually David completed his task by using the Giants own weapon. Isn't this sometimes the way. Your reply is a blessing, God bless.

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Van · Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 8:22 pm Post subject: atheism

And as others have correctly mentioned, prayer is essential. May you represent the Kingdom with truth. Van

Magnum PI · Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:43 pm Post subject: atheism

quote
Quote:

MPI has posted several papers on this discussion board, such as Why your God is impossible, and a Humanist view of God or some such, and together they present just about all the commonly seen arguments made my athiests to undermine faith in God.

Logical Fallacy: Poisoning the Well

quote
Quote:

The replies from this person so far have been exactly as you have described.

Logical Fallacy: Bandwagon

Argumentum Ad Nauseum The same old retalitory tiresome fallacious arguments in place of rational thought and discourse.

quote:
General revelation, the heavens declare the glory of God, speaks to me and many others of God's awesome greatness. I see evidence for design, but an atheist would say I impose my perception on a truly random universe.

Special revelation, the Bible provides evidence for God, and I accept it as reliable and accurate enough for God's purpose. Atheists reject the Bible, considering it a product of culture and the invention of men.

Testimony of Believers, people you know and trust share the very real experiences of God being active in their lives. Atheists would say we are self-deluded.

Neither of the three are by any means (by definition) evidence. What each one is premised on is merely blind faith.

First off, the philosophical "Design" argument has been put to pasture long ago. It is neither evidence nor is it even a good logical argument.

Secondly, the Bible in and of itself is not 'evidence' and it has provided no physical evidence either. Like all great works of literature it is a reflection of what human kind once was, in that time.

Lastly, that last one was a joke! The "Believers" of Jonestown 'believed,' and look what happened to them! 'Heaven's Gate'! 'The Kavidians' 'The 9/11 terrorists'...I can go on and on you know. They were all "Believers" and they were all most certainly 'deluded' (all religious fanatics who put others in harms way in the name of 'God' are!)!

Here is a little analogy for you to chew on...

"If I should believe things without having proof (or even evidence), on what basis should I discern true statements from false statements? There is also no proof that there is a 40,000 ton invisible dragon sitting on top of my computer at the moment. Do you think I should I believe in that as well?

What if my wife came in and told me that this dragon told her that I am asking too much when I ask for evidence of the dragon's existence? The dragon telling her to tell me that I should just believe "on faith," because that's what the dragon is asking for. Do you think I should believe in that dragon simply "on faith" because my wife (and the dragon) says so?

If not, then hopefully you have somewhat of an understanding of why some people are skeptical of claims of supernatural superdeities watching over our every move and threatening us with eternal torment for being skeptical of His existence by using the mental tools that He gave us (but apparently intended for us not to use).

And I leave you with this question: Do you believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?"

MPI

[This message has been edited by Magnum PI (edited 01-18-2003).]

admin · Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 3:42 am Post subject: atheism

Personally, I don't argue with fundamentalists or atheists because I don't see the point. It just creates a cyclical debate that doesn't really go anywhere.

When people tell me they are atheist I just say "ok" and hope that I'm a good enough example that they maybe start to see things differently. I guess what I like most about that approach is it puts my focus back on my own path and walking it as best I can.

(That will be 2 cents please...)

Cybermonsters (Most Beloved Admin)

Magnum PI · Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 8:57 am Post subject: atheism

quote:
Originally posted by admin:
Personally, I don't argue with fundamentalists or atheists because I don't see the point. It just creates a cyclical debate that doesn't really go anywhere.

Uh, wasn't that statement (position) contradictory to your point and purpose of running these forums?

Besides, if you don't take the time to listen to others views (and with an open mind), then you'll really never learn anything in life (ignorance is bliss...).

In any case, no one says you have to literally argue (i.e., irrational emotional knee-jerk reactions, anger, etc.), just have an open ended conversation that fosters a healthy debate. Certainly you're capable of that, aren't you? (I know you are, I've seen you do it before

)

MPI

PS. Wasn't this sort of hypocritical?

quote
Quote:

When people tell me they are atheist I just say "ok" and hope that I'm a good enough example that they maybe start to see things differently.

You "hope" others see you as an example yet you refuse to even look at others as an example in the same light.

Hmmmm...sounds sort of hypocritical to me. (It also borders on the logical fallacy Special Pleading).

[This message has been edited by Magnum PI (edited 01-18-2003).]

Nobby · Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:36 pm Post subject: atheism

Hi Magnum,
Could I get you not to debate in
Noah's Lounge or the Books. Your welcome to post here, like everyone else. If you want to debate something ask them to take it up on a debate forum.
If you wish to continue this thread I can move it to the debate forum!
ThankX Nobby
PS: I believe this thread should be on the
Christian Debate forum anyway.

[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 01-18-2003).]

admin · Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:25 pm Post subject: atheism

Magnum, please play nice in the sandbox.

Magnum PI · Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 11:01 pm Post subject: atheism

quote:
Originally posted by Nobby:
Hi Magnum,
Could I get you not to debate in
Noah's Lounge or the Books.

Sorry Nobby, but if someone is going to take pot shots at me (either directly or indirectly) I'm going to respond regardless of the forum (though you know full well I rarely if ever post in Noah's Lounge)!

quote
Quote:

PS: I believe this thread should be on the Christian Debate forum anyway.

There is no "Christian" Debate forum...but there is the "Bible" Debate forum, last I checked anyway.

Anyhow, instead of asking me not to post here perhaps you should be asking people to post more carefully. Clearly this thread belongs in the Bible Debate Forum.

Respectfully,
MPI

puffer · Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:39 am Post subject: atheism

I am appreciative of all the commens thus far. Each has a thread of thought conducieve to my present need. I recently input the "prime mover" theory(fact) and received "but who moves the prime mover" response, which is clearly a circumvent rather than a rebuttal. These are the areas that produce the most results. such as things that cannot naturally exist but do exist and the perfect geometry and physcists of the universe, etc,. Another for instance:
God states he has always been, but is that relative to time as we know it; or is God was referencing his essence or that from which He was to come then this is on a level compatabile with the mortal mind for I too have existed from time immorial as my essence was present all the time and and was only realized by myself when the present form was realized. Comments

Nobby · Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2003 12:03 pm Post subject: atheism

Yeah, Cyber! Every board should have a sandbox!

Mag. Sorry I must have had one of those senior moments! I should have said Bible Debate.
Not to take anything away from our admin.
I think this is his line:
Your wish is my command......Poof!