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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:53 pm Post subject: Trinity Discussion |
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It proves that Yahweh (God) is talking about being sent by another Lord (God). It gives two different persons, both titled as God, and one speaking about the other.
You'd either have to explain it as a schizo God, or a Trinitarian God. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:47 am Post subject: |
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I agree 48;16 does seem to be the son of God talking, but if you re-read verse 16 seems to be diffrent from the others, it is the only one thats seems to be from him and the only one that does not call himself the Lord. The son of God has always claimed to be with the father in the beginning (john 1) (the word). How does this prove your case?
I am claiming Jesus is not God. I agree he was with God in the beginning
Isaiah 48
12 "Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.
14 "Come together, all of you, and listen:
Which of the idols has foretold these things?
The LORD's chosen ally
will carry out his purpose against Babylon;
his arm will be against the Babylonians.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
yes, I have called him.
I will bring him,
and he will succeed in his mission.
16 "Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with his Spirit.
17 This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
who teaches you what is best for you,
who directs you in the way you should go. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I agree 48;16 does seem to be the son of God talking, but if you re-read verse 16 seems to be diffrent from the others, it is the only one thats seems to be from him and the only one that does not call himself the Lord. |
No one made the claim that it was the Son of God talking. I am claiming that it is the LORD our God, as verse seventeen specifically says. I am claiming that it is the King of Israel, the Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts claiming the title of the first and last in verse 12 as He does in 44:6. I am claiming that it is the one who claims not to give His glory to another in verse 11. I am claiming that God is speaking here.
And likewise claiming as well that God says He is sent by the LORD God.
| Quote: | 12 "Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last. |
This 'first and last' is using first person pronouns here, He is saying things that He has done, He is saying 'I'.
| Quote: | 13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together. |
Again, telling His actions, saying 'my', 'my' and 'I'...no speaker change here...
| Quote: | 14 "Come together, all of you, and listen:
Which of the idols has foretold these things?
The LORD's chosen ally
will carry out his [Cyrus] purpose against Babylon;
his [Cyrus] arm will be against the Babylonians. |
No change of speaker, or manner in which He speaks. Here He is calling Cyrus 'the LORD's chosen ally', as if this is some manner of title. Yet it is the same speaker nonetheless.
| Quote: | 15 I, even I, have spoken;
yes, I have called him.
I will bring him,
and he will succeed in his mission. |
Again, 'I', 'I', 'I', and 'I'...first person, no change of speaker here.
| Quote: | 16 "Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with his Spirit. |
Again, no change of speaker. He is saying that He has not spoken in secret, and saying that now the 'Sovereign LORD' has sent Him.
So we have the 'first and last', the creator of the universe speaking throughout these verses and at verse sixteen claiming to be sent by the Soveriegn LORD.
| Quote: | | but if you re-read verse 16 seems to be diffrent from the others, it is the only one thats seems to be from him and the only one that does not call himself the Lord. |
You are wrong if you claim that it is the only one that does not seem to be from Him. Read it again, 'I have not spoken in secret'; no different than 'I am the first and I am the last' as is found in verse twelve. And 'when I summon them, they all stand...' in verse thirteen. The same speaker is speaking throughout this passage, there is no signfication that the speaker changes.
And you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT that this speaker does not seem to call Himself LORD within verse sixteen. That is my very point, all throughout the previous verses He claims the titles of the LORD and even speaks of Cyrus as His called one and as the LORD's chosen ally; yet in verse sixteen He refers to another (the one who sent Him) as the Sovereign LORD.
You cannot deny that from this passage we have one person speaking throughout - that being the 'first and last', the creator of the heavens.
And you cannot further deny that in verse sixteen this same person claims to be sent by the 'Sovereign LORD'.
You'd either have to put another Sovereign LORD over your monopersonic God, or you'd have to acknowledge that the LORD of the Old Testament is one sent by another Sovereign LORD thus allowing for two LORD's, or at least two persons who claim the title of LORD. You cannot deny this further without specifically denying the Old Testament passage. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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So this is your proof!
Believe that Jesus is God, never mind the countless times God warned us about making gods of our own, and never mind that God told us we would one day worship gods that can not deliver us, and unless we repent and give glory to him we shall never enter his kingdom!
Gods wrath- if we are his choosen people who he loves he assures us we must be punished too.
Remember he said take this cup of my wrath and drink from it and if they refuse tell them the Lord God say's you must drink from it.
He said drink till you get drunk and fall! We are required to BELIEVE in christ, not worship him! |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Do you deny that within this passage the LORD says He is sent by the LORD? |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:54 am Post subject: |
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I dont deny that the passage says He is sent by the LORD?
Dont im not convinced who it is saying that! |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Could you please show me where it seems to be that it breaks from the person who has been speaking for the last couple of chapters to some other speaker? Because the plain reading of it, at least from my perspective, seems to be the same speaker uninterrupted. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | One more thing, since you say you would never bow before Jesus, or never pray to Him; do you believe it is wrong to do this? Do you believe it idolatry to either bow before Jesus, or to pray to Him? |
Metro you make it sound like i dont recognize Jesus as Gods son, but i do.
I dont believe in the trinity the way you do. Are we suppost to worship Jesus If God tells us to yeah, Because God can give authority to anyone he choose's.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | God told his angels to worship jesus? When did he say that? |
I've quoted the verse twice already: Hebrews 1:6 |
I know Hebrews says it metro im asking where that information in Hebrews came from was it quoted from one of the prophets? How does paul know that God told his angels this? |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:25 am Post subject: |
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LOL, I find it hilarious that you called me 'Metro' twice within your address. I would classify as a 'metrosexual', but most do not know that unless they actually met me...LOL
| Quote: | Metro you make it sound like i dont recognize Jesus as Gods son, but i do.
I dont believe in the trinity the way you do. Are we suppost to worship Jesus If God tells us to yeah, Because God can give authority to anyone he choose's. |
Christina, you fail to recognize the seriousness of 'worship'. Are you now saying that we can in fact 'worship' someone or something other than God? Would this not go against the entire grain of Jewish thinking (Old Testament) that specifically and unequivocally requires worship to be given to God and God alone?
| Quote: | | I know Hebrews says it metro im asking where that information in Hebrews came from was it quoted from one of the prophets? How does paul know that God told his angels this? |
First, it is doubted whether Paul wrote Hebrews. But let us assume he did.
Paul, a hebrew Scholar, a man who studied the Old Testament his entire life, who would know more about the writings of David and the prophets than we could ever dream of thinking, quoted Psalm 97:7 and attributed it to Jesus. Would you say you know more about Hebrew and the Old Testament than he? |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| metothezero wrote: |
| Quote: | Metro you make it sound like i dont recognize Jesus as Gods son, but i do.
I dont believe in the trinity the way you do. Are we suppost to worship Jesus If God tells us to yeah, Because God can give authority to anyone he choose's. |
Christina, you fail to recognize the seriousness of 'worship'. Are you now saying that we can in fact 'worship' someone or something other than God? Would this not go against the entire grain of Jewish thinking (Old Testament) that specifically and unequivocally requires worship to be given to God and God alone? |
No it would'nt
Anoint- To pour or rub olive oil on someone in order to honor or to appoint him to some special work. The Israelite kings were anointed as a sign of their taking office, and so the king could be called "the anointed one." In a figurative sense, "The Anointed One" is the title of the one whom God chose and appointed as Savior and Lord.
Messiah- A Hebrew title (meaning "the anointed one") given to the promised Savior, whose coming was foretold by the Hebrew prophets; the corresponding Greek term " The Christ" has the same meaning
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| Quote: | | I know Hebrews says it metro im asking where that information in Hebrews came from was it quoted from one of the prophets? How does paul know that God told his angels this? |
First, it is doubted whether Paul wrote Hebrews. But let us assume he did.
Paul, a hebrew Scholar, a man who studied the Old Testament his entire life, who would know more about the writings of David and the prophets than we could ever dream of thinking, quoted Psalm 97:7 and attributed it to Jesus. Would you say you know more about Hebrew and the Old Testament than he? |
I dont claim to know more then paul but like you said it is doubted whether paul wrote hebrews meaning it could be fake, but I would prefer you to say it before me because i know you would have said "You think You know more then the new testament". Thats why I asked where the information in Hebrews came from!
| Quote: | | LOL, I find it hilarious that you called me 'Metro' twice within your address. I would classify as a 'metrosexual', but most do not know that unless they actually met me...LOL |
LOL I thought it was metro sorry. I must need glasses! |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | No it would'nt
Anoint- To pour or rub olive oil on someone in order to honor or to appoint him to some special work. The Israelite kings were anointed as a sign of their taking office, and so the king could be called "the anointed one." In a figurative sense, "The Anointed One" is the title of the one whom God chose and appointed as Savior and Lord.
Messiah- A Hebrew title (meaning "the anointed one") given to the promised Savior, whose coming was foretold by the Hebrew prophets; the corresponding Greek term " The Christ" has the same meaning |
Yet, do you ever read within the Old Testament of any annointed Israelite kings who receive worship? I could build an inpenatrable case from Scripture that it is God alone who deserves worship and it is God alone whom the Scriptures command to worship. Or would you doubt this and say that another can receive the worship that is due the Almighty?
| Quote: | | I dont claim to know more then paul but like you said it is doubted whether paul wrote hebrews meaning it could be fake, but I would prefer you to say it before me because i know you would have said "You think You know more then the new testament". Thats why I asked where the information in Hebrews came from! |
Simply because it is not written by Paul does not make it fake. Nowhere within the book does it claim Paul as its author. The author is an Holy Spirit inspired writer, therefore, making it of undeniable authenticity and veracity. There is great evidence and many opinion that the author is actually Luke. Regardless, it is Scripture and therefore, proof. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Meto do you think i or anybody else will not be allowed in God's kingdom because we do not believe Jesus was God himself. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Let us see. Would you say that there will be anyone in the kingdom who thinks that the Father is not God? Could we say that someone will go to heaven thinking that the Father is not God, and perhaps someone (or something) else is? If the Father is God, a complete denial of His deity would seem to disqualify one from entering the Kingdom.
Likewise, if Jesus is God, a denial of who He is would disqualify someone from entering the Kingdom. Hence the reason why our discussion is of the utmost importance. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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So my friend meto, you believe i will go to the pit.
Do you find me to be against God? I have many times said "I BELIEVE"
in God as well as his Son.
I would never cause pain to even my worst enemy.
Nor turn from anyone who asked for help.
I love God He is my father and I will wait until the end of my days for him.
And you with not even a second thought say I am not worthy,
and why? Because I wont say that the SON is the FATHER! |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:22 am Post subject: |
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I have never even remotely asked you to say the Son is the Father, neither has any Trinitarian even hinted at this being the doctrine of the Trinity. If Jesus is deity, then denying His deity is tantamount to denying Him.
If I was to tell you that I did not believe the God of the bible to be God, would you still say I could go to heaven? |
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