THE TRINITY IS BALONEY !!!

metothezero · Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:33 am Post subject:

Do you discredit New Testament as Scriptural?

Regardless, for what reason would you like Old Testament reference?

I pointed out the two New Testament reference that show that Jesus is the creator. What reason do you want the Old Testament one, the same?

If so, I confess I haven't any. No Old Testament reference that say Jesus is the creator. I have one that says the Holy Spirit is so (Job 33:4).
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis

Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall.

M Paul · Tadpole Joined: 09 Jun 2005 Posts: 18

M Paul · Tadpole Joined: 09 Jun 2005 Posts: 18

Here's a quote from the Didache

"Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before."

Note the use of the Trinity.

Here's a web site establishing a first or second century date to the Didache

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html

Regards,

Paul

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

From www.auburn.edu

Foreword
References for all statements obtained from research are listed at the end of this thesis and are marked throughout the text with corresponding superscript numbers.
Unless otherwise noted, all scripture is quoted from the Revised Standard Version (RSV) of the Bible.

Readers are encouraged to verify everything to their own satisfaction.

"...for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so." (Acts 17:11)

"...test everything; hold fast what is good, abstain from every form of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:21-22)

I. Introduction
Most Christians in the world today believe in the Trinity which is the union of the three divine persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- into one Godhead.(1)
The Dictionary states that doctrine is something taught as the principles of a religion and that dogma is a doctrine formally and authoritatively affirmed(2) but not necessarily proven. The Trinity, therefore, is a principle that can be considered dogmatic.

Sincere Christians, however, are more interested in obtaining accurate knowledge from Biblical research than in twisting and manipulating the scriptures to fit some preconceived man-made doctrine or dogma. To these people, truth is more important than tradition.

Is the dogma of the Trinity fact or not? Let us examine the evidence.

II. How the Trinity Became Doctrine
During the days when Christ's apostles lived, the Gospel was taught with accuracy, but after their death, it did not take very long for the truth to become eroded with falsehoods.
This erosion of Biblical truth grew like a cancer -- slow, but sure. Little by little, inacuracy crept in as the Gospel message of Jesus Christ became more and more popular.

In an effort to increase the church membership, many Pagans were brought in and with the Pagans came Pagan ideas. Rituals began to replace serious Bible study and differences in opinion soon became the basis for growth of various creeds and sects. Over the span of many years, man-made rites became time honored tradition.

Christian leaders then became powerful forces in the church as well as in politics; religious beliefs, many times, were dictated by the state. These facts, however, are not surpirsing considering the Biblical warning:

"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them.... And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words...." (2 Peter 1:20-21; 2:1-3)
Trinity Is Not A Christian Idea
One idea that became popular among Christians around the fourth century was that of a trinity of gods. It was not, however, a new idea conceived by Christians, for there is much evidence of widespread belief in similar ideas throughout earlier recorded history.
Many scholars believe that the Trinity, as taught by Christians, comes from Plato as suggested in the Timaeus, but the Platonic trinity is itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples.(3)

In Indian religion there is the Trinitarian group of Brahma, Vishna, and Shiva; in Egyptian religion there is the group of Kneph, Phthas, and Osiris. In Phoenicia the trinity of gods were Ulomus, Ulosuros, and Eliun. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon, and Aidoneus.

In Rome they were Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto. In Babylonia and Assyria they were Anos, lllinos, and Aos. Among Celtic nations they were called Kriosan, Biosena, and Siva, and in Germanic nations they were called Thor, Wodan, and Fricco.(4)

Trinities of gods existed in other cultures as well, including, but not limited to, those of Siberia, Persia, Japan, Scandinavia, and Mexico.

We can see, therefore, that although the Trinity is characteristic of the Christian religion, it is by no means peculiar to it.

Trinity Not Mentioned In Bible
The truth is that the Trinity isn't even mentioned in God's word, the Holy Bible.(5) A check of any concordance will prove this fact. Not only is it not mentioned, but the doctrine is neither found in the New Testament,(6) nor the Old Testament.(7)
Concerning Old Testament scriptures, "theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity, even though it was customary in past dogmatic tracts .... to cite texts like Genesis 1:26 .... as proof of plurality in God."(8) And "... in the New Testament the doctrine of the Trinity is not enunciated ..." but only "deduced from a collocation of passages ...."(9)

The Trinity, therefore, did not " ... reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God, it was, on the contrary, a divination from this teaching."(10)

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established ... into Christian life ... prior to the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there has been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."(11)

If the Trinity doctrine isn't Biblical in nature, how did it become a part of Christian dogma?

Idea of Trinity Evolved
"It is generally acknowledged that the church father Tertullian (ca. A.D. 145-220) either coined the term or was the first to use it with reference to God. The explicit doctrine was thus formulated in the post-biblical period...."(12)
The book World Religions From Ancient History to the Present indicates that today's belief in the Trinity evolved over many years of heated political argument. The book states:

The great Arian controversy of the fourth century, which split the Church in two, stemmed from the preaching .... that the Son was a created being who did not eternally exist and, therefore, was a sort of demi-god, subordinate to the Father.
The Emperor Constantine summoned the first General Council of the Church of Niceae, in 325, to settle this dispute and so reunify the Church. It condemned the teaching of Arius and produced a creed which declared that the Son is of one substance with and co-eternal with the Father.

Theodosius I convened the second General Council at Constantinople, in 381, which endorsed his definition of Catholicism, finally condemned Arianism .... and reaffirmed the Nicene Creed.

A further dispute arose between the monk Nestorius, patriarch of Constantinople in 428, and Cyril, patriarch of Alexandria about the two natures in Christ ....

There was ferocious argument ... in which Rome joined on the side of Alexandria against the pretentious claims of the upstart see of Constantinople. Thus politics entered into the dispute.

Once again the state intervened. The third general council of the Church at Ephesus, in 431, was called by the two emperors, Theodosius II of the East and Valentinian III of the West. It condemned Nestorianism, and Nestorius was exhiled to the Egyptian desert in 435 ....

[At] the final session .... the Catholic Church in East and West accepted what is known as the .... doctrine on the Trinity.

This statement of belief, together with other doctrinal definitions ... [has] ever since been accepted by Eastern and Western Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant Christians.(13)

It is interesting to note that the first General Council of the Church at Niceae stated that the basic question contained in the New Testament was: Is Christ God or not? They stated that it could only be answered with a "yes" or "no." It was either true or not.(14)

The search for basic truth deteriorated into a widely accepted doctrine which was influenced, not by logic and biblical research, but by politics and human egotism.

Trinity Is Man-Made Concept
The facts, therefore, prove that the doctrine of the Trinity does not appear in the Bible(15) "nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4).... The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.... By the end of the 4th century the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."(16)
The controversy, indeed, was settled by man, not God. But, if God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same, who, or what, are they?

I have at least three saved explanations such as this on my bookmarks. I have so much information but you asked the source I would have to say the Bible itself.

M Paul · Tadpole Joined: 09 Jun 2005 Posts: 18

I asked for better support of the pagan source theory on the Trinity as follows--

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

The books of I and II Corinthians were originally written by Paul to the church he formed among pagans. He formed these churchs out of extreme trepidations because of the city's extreme moral depravity and its pagan cult, which included the practice of religious prostitution. (Introduction to Corinthians NAB Catholic version)

If you have studied anything about the ancient world you would know that most of the surrounding countries at the time of Jesus were Pagan. Greece, Rome, Babaloyn were not Jewish, they were Pagan.

I do not understand what sources you wish me to give you unless you want me to post the history of the ancient world during the time of Jesus???? Don't you think it would be easier for you to check it out on your own.?

You and your church believe that because the Bible speaks of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit this is the trinity. This is where the pagan believers get the trinity but it is not how Jesus and the Apostles originally ta

The following are references from the thesis that I previously posted.
Concerning the Christian Trinity concept, J. L. Mckenzie, in his book, Dictionary of the Bible, states: "The Trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible."(23)
Research, therefore, proves that even the concept of the Trinity, as taught by Christian religions, did not exist, and could not have existed, during all of Biblical history.

The deduction, by factual research and logical reasoning, is that there is absolutely no evidence or proof that there is a Trinity. The evidence, in fact, proves the opposite -- there is definitely not a Trinity.

The Father is Jehovah, the Creator of the Universe. The Son is Jesus Christ, begotten by the Father. And the Holy Spirit is God's power -- his active force -- not a person or being.

This booklet contains just a sampling of some of the truths taught in the Holy Bible. All people who desire an accurate knowledge of our Creator and His divine plan for mankind are encouraged to carefully examine the great book of truths, the Holy Bible, and learn how harmonious and comprehensible His plan is.

VII. Bible Verses Prove Trinity False
Listed below are over a hundred individual Bible verses which prove conclusively that Jesus Christ was not God, but God's Son. We urge all sincere Christians to examine their own Bibles as to the accuracy of this information.
Matthew 3:16-17; 8:29; 11:27; 12:18; 14:33; 16:16-17; 17:5; 27:54
Mark 5:7; 15:39
Luke 1:32; 1:35; 8:28; 9:35; 10:22
John 1:13; 1:18; 1:34; 1:49; 3:16; 5:19-23; 5:37; 6:40; 6:69; 8:18; 8:42; 10:15; 10:36; 11:4; 12:49-50; 14:13; 14:23; 14:28; 16:17; 17:1-16; 20:17; 20:31
Acts 2:22-24; 3:13; 3:26; 9:20
Romans 1:4; 5:10; 8:29
1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:28
2 Corinthians 1:19
Galatians 4:4
Philippians 2:9
Colossians 1:13
1 Thessalonians 1:10
1 Timothy 2:5
Hebrews 1:2; 2:9; 4:14; 5:7-8
1 Peter 1:3
2 Peter 1:17
1 John 1:3; 2:22; 3:23; 4:10; 4:14-15; 5:11-12
2 John 1:9
Revelation 2:18
VIII. The Son of God Became the Son of Man So that We, the Sons of Man, May Become the Sons of God
Here are 60 Bible texts which prove conclusively that Jesus was NOT GOD, but RATHER the SON of God. [If in fact He WAS God, (as trinitarians would want us to believe), He could not have really died; and the act of paying the Ransom would merely have been a hoax!]
Matthew 3:16-17; 8:29; 11:27; 12:18; 14:33; 16:16; 17:5; 27:54
Mark 5:7; 15:39
Luke 1:32; 8:28; 9:35; 10:22
John 1:18; 1:34; 1:49; 3:16; 5:19-23; 6:40; 6:69; 8:42; 10:15; 11:4; 12:49-50; 14:13; 14:23; 14:28; 16:17; 17:1-26
Acts 2:22-24; 3:13; 3:26; 9:20
Romans 1:4; 5:10; 8:13; 8:29-32
1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:28
2 Corinthians 1:19
Galatians 4:4
Colossians 1:13
1 Thessalonians 1:10
Hebrews 1:2; 4:14; 5:8; 7:3; 11:17
2 Peter 1:17
1 John 1:3; 1:22; 3:23; 4:10; 4:14-15; 5:6; 5:11-12
2 John 1:9
Revelation 2:8
Since these texts exist in God's Word, the Gospel story has been told over and over again. However, it could NOT be told if Jesus had really been God and the ransom had not actually been paid! GOD CAN"T DIE!

IX. Bible Versions and References Used
This booklet was originally published by: Christian Millennial Fellowship, Hartford, CT

(KJV) The Holy Bible, Authorized King James Version

(TLB) The Living Bible, c.1971, Tyndale House Publishers

(NIV) The Holy Bible, New International Version, c.1984, International Bible Society

(RSV) The Holy Bible, Revised Standard Version, c.1973, Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Chruches of Christ in the United States of America

(NAS) New American Standard Bible, c.1972, The Lockman Foundation

(GND) Good News New Testament, c. 1976, American Bible Society

(MEB) The New Testament in Modern English, c.1958, by J. B. Phillips

(NEB) The New English Bible, c.1961, Oxford University Press

(DGT) The Emphatic Diaglott Containing the Original Greek Text of What Is Commonly Styled the New Testament, by Benjamin Wilson
1. Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, ed. V. Neufeldt, c.1988, Simon & Schuster, New York

2. Webster's New World Dictionary, (see previous reference)

3. Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, Vol. 2, by M. Lachatre, c.1865, Paris

4. God, by Paul Johnson, c. 1938, pub. By P.S.L. Johnson, Philadelphia, Pa.

5. Harper's Bible Dictionary, by P. Achtemeier, c. 1985, Harper & Row, San Francisco, Ca.

6. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Vol. 12, ed. S. Jackson, reprint of early 1900's edition republished by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Mich.

7. Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, Vol. 10, by J. M'Clintock and J. Strong, reprint of 1881 workd published by Baker Book House, Grands Rapids, Mich.

8. The Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 15, ed. M. Eliade, c. 1987, Macmillan Pub. Co., New York

9. The New Schaffe-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. 12, ed. S. Jackson, reprint of early 1900's edition republished by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Mich.

10. Encyclopedia Americana, Vol. 27, c.1956, Americana Corp., New York

11. New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 14, p.299, by editorial staff at the Catholic University of America, c.1967, McGraw-Hill, New York

12. Harper's Bible Dictionary (see previous reference)

13. World Religions From Ancient History to the Present, ed. G. Parrinder, c.1971, Facts On File Publications, New York

14. The Three-Personed God, by W. Hill, c.1982, The Catholic University of America Press, Washington, D.C.

15. Dictionary of the Bible, by J. McKenzie, c.1965, Bruce Pub. Co., Milwaukee

16. The New Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 10, Micropedia Ready Reference, c.1976, Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., Chicago

17. Aid to Bible Understanding, c. 1971, pub. I.B.S.A., New York

18. Harper's Bible Dictionary, (see previous reference)

19. Harper's Bible Dictionary, (see previous reference)

20. Aid to Bible Understanding, (see previous reference)

21. New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 14, by editorial staff at the Catholic University of America, c.1967, pub. McGraw-Hill, New York

22. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Vol. 15, (see previous reference)

23. Dictionary of the Bible, (see previous reference)

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Matthew 3:16-17 Mat 3:16 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;
Mat 3:17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.;

8:29 Mat 8:29 And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?;

11:27 Mat 11:27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him.; 12:18; 14:33; 16:16-17; 17:5; 27:54

I could go on, but for what purpose? Bridget, you reference said: Listed below are over a hundred individual Bible verses which prove conclusively that Jesus Christ was not God, but God's Son
What these verses PROVE is that Jesus is the Son of God. What they do not prove is that Jesus Christ IS NOT GOD. An accurate understanding of the trinity would be necessary to understand this.
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JP's Mind - my blog

James1-26 · Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:26 am Post subject:

I do not understand the Trinity. Nevertheless, I question the necessity in believing in a Trinity. How will I benefit from believing in a Trinity?
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"Life is tough. Life is tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
"Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me:..." --the LORD

metothezero · Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:41 am Post subject:

M Paul · Tadpole Joined: 09 Jun 2005 Posts: 18

M Paul · Tadpole Joined: 09 Jun 2005 Posts: 18

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

My claiming that Jesus is not God, in no way discredits either the New Testament or Yeshua. What the Bible teaches is very simple, God sent His Only begotten Son so that we can receive His forgiveness.
First of all let me explain my love for the Old Testament. These are the words that Yeshua Himself would have read in the first century, only He knew them as the Sacred Scriptures and this is why you find so many verses from the Old Testament quoted in the New. The Apostles were Jews. Jew originated from God and were to be His people. How can you look at the Old Testament and see anything having to do with Yeshua being the creator or that there is a trinity is beyond me. It proves that you have never studied the Old Testament and you have no idea of who Yeshua really was and what He believed, and I doubt very much if you care. You only care about your pagan church and it's teachings. So Be It!!

christina · Cobra Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 456

I agree with bridget.
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Christina

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

"Let US make man in our image..."

Who the heck is Us?
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JP's Mind - my blog

Nobby · Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:21 pm Post subject: THE TRINITY IS BALONEY !!!