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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:28 am Post subject: Trinity Discussion |
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_____________Christina & Metothezero
________________ One-on-One Debate 
Cristina, since you seem to be the one with questions regarding the
Trinity, perhaps you should first present those questions and I will attempt to answer them (hopefully, to your satisfaction).
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The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Matthew 3:16-17
16After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
You said God stepped out of Heaven and came to earth, Who was the voice from heaven from?
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Christina |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:31 am Post subject: |
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God's.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You said God stepped out of Heaven and came to earth, Who was the voice from heaven from? |
Did he record it ahead of time or what?
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Christina |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Did he record it ahead of time or what? |
HA! That was quite humorous. Like I can so see Jesus tape recording His voice and then having the Holy Spirit press the play button at the exact time that Jesus is being raised out of the water. And even them practicing before hand as to have the timing correct! LOL
But...no.
Ma'am, have you not studied the Trinitarian doctrine? God is three persons. The person of the son was baptized. The person of the Father was within Heaven and He is the one who said 'This is My Son...' The Son is God. The Father is God. Hence, God was baptized, and God said 'This is My Son...' Different persons doing different actions yet sharing the same nature.
Perhaps you would like to address specific Scripture that is used by Trinitarians to prove the deity of Christ? Shall we tackle it from that perspective?
Let us perhaps start at the most famous of all John 1:1. How do you explain the specific reference to the Word (Jesus) being God?
Or, if you are not adept at explaining away this verse, perhaps you could present a specific verse which testifies undoubtably to the fact that Jesus is not God.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| metothezero wrote: |
Ma'am, have you not studied the Trinitarian doctrine? God is three persons. The person of the son was baptized. The person of the Father was within Heaven and He is the one who said 'This is My Son...' The Son is God. The Father is God. Hence, God was baptized, and God said 'This is My Son...' Different persons doing different actions yet sharing the same nature.
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So God the father God the son and the holy spirit those three equal God!
Doesnt that take away from God our father and creator? We are putting him equal with his Son.
If you say Jesus has the spirit of God in him I agree with that, but jesus is not equal to God!
God would be God independent of Jesus but you cant say the same for Jesus, without God he would be nobody.
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Christina |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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The LORD's Chosen Servant
Isaiah 42
1BEHOLD MY Servant, Whom I uphold, My elect in Whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice and right and reveal truth to the nations.
2He will not cry or shout aloud or cause His voice to be heard in the street.
3A bruised reed He will not break, and a dimly burning wick He will not quench; He will bring forth justice in truth.
4He will not fail or become weak or be crushed and discouraged till He has established justice in the earth; and the islands and coastal regions shall wait hopefully for Him and expect His direction and law.
5Thus says God the Lord--He Who created the heavens and stretched them forth, He Who spread abroad the earth and that which comes out of it, He Who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:
6I the Lord have called You [the Messiah] for a righteous purpose and in righteousness; I will take You by the hand and will keep You; I will give You for a covenant to the people [Israel], for a light to the nations [Gentiles],
7To open the eyes of the blind, to bring out prisoners from the dungeon, and those who sit in darkness from the prison.
8I am the Lord; that is My name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images.
9Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.
How can you make equal the servent and God!
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Christina |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So God the father God the son and the holy spirit those three equal God! |
Yes it does.
| Quote: | | Doesnt that take away from God our father and creator? |
It does not at all 'take away' from the Father. I can assert this all day, and you can assert it does. Perhaps if we have Scripture that said specifically that if Jesus is deity then this takes away from the Father...
Also, I seem to remember the Son being called Creator:
Joh 1:3 All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.
Col 1:16 because by Him everything was created, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
The Spirit likewise being called Creator:
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Not to say the Father did not create (Isa. 64:8 ), but it seems all three had a part in the process. Therefore, recognizing that all three are creator, and echoing Scripture, in no way 'takes away' from the Father's position as creator.
| Quote: | | We are putting him equal with his Son. |
This is a topic in and of itself. There are discussions within the Trinity as to Jesus' role or subordination. While all three are God, it does appear that there is some manner of subordination within the Trinity nonetheless.
| Quote: | There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).
This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son. But this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. A wife is to be subject to her husband but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38 ). Does this mean that the one sent must, therefore, be of different nature than the one who sent him? Of course not.
Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way. But this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and in the servant we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human. CARM |
Trinitarians are putting the Son equal with the Spirit equal with the Father. This is taught within Scripture. All are Creator, all Sanctify, all are the Judge, all are the Savior. They all do these in different ways, yet they are all responsible for them as all are God.
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How can you make equal the servent and God! |
Because 'servant' is His role. Just as 'Son' is and 'Father' is. I think the analogy of both the husband/wife and even moreso the king/servant. Just because Scripturally the wife is subordinate to the husband and the servant is subordinate to the king; this in no way entitles the idea that the servant or wife are less human than the king or husband. All are of the same essence (human), yet their roles are different.
Just because the servant does the bidding of the king, this in no way entitles the fallacious argumentation that the servant, in so doing the bidding of the King, has lost its essence as human and has been degraded to truly being nothing more than animal.
Understand?
They are equal in essence (God), but not in role (servant/King).
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:42 am Post subject: |
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I'v read www.carm.org I still do not believe Jesus is equal to God.
He does have The spirit of God inside of him if that makes him equal with God, is it ok for all of us (who claim to have the christ in us) to consider ourselves equal with God?
You are telling me to believe the trinity doctorine but im telling you to believe the old testament!
Well at lest lets start with the first comandment
Exodus 20;2-5
I am the Lord your God, Who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before or besides Me.
You shall not make yourself any graven image [to worship it] or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
You shall not bow down yourself to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me,
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Christina |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Very well. Let me ask you a question. Is Jesus a god at least? I know you do not believe Him to be The God, as in Yahweh; but would you say that He is at least a god?
Or would you think John (the one whom Jesus called beloved) to be mistaken when he said of Him to be 'god'?
Would you likewise think the writer of the majority of the New Testament to be mistaken when he called Jesus the great God and savior of us?
I can understand you saying that He may not be The God, as in The Father, as in Yahweh; but would you likewise say that He was not a god at all, contrary to the testimony of the New Testament writers?
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Lord Yes, God No.
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Christina |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| christina wrote: | | Lord Yes, God No. |
Matthew 22:44
"The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"
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Christina |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Do you serve this Lord (Jesus)? Do you worship Him (Jesus)?
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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what do you mean by worship and serve?
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Christina |
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