Christ's Return

christina · Cobra Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 456

How many believe christ has already returned on earth in the flesh after being crucified.
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Christina

christina · Cobra Joined: 01 Nov 2004 Posts: 456

It seems like the warning in Matthew 24 was made for matthew 28

Matthew 24
23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
30“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will
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Matthew 28;2
2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

5The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”
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Christina

Star · Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject:

Thats actually a good question Christina, sorry I got here late I had things in my life to deal with.

Is not our Testimony "Christ IS come in the flesh" ofcourse the original Greek could be off but in our reality and in our seasons (though He seem to be "far off" as well as near, Christ does dwell in our hearts by faith and faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for and we hope for Him in us. After all Christ in us IS our HOPE of glory. Yet we can still be in another place in our realities which is what Paul shared, "Who HOPES for what he already has? Yet faith hope and love remains and all tie into Christ in whom we hope and faith is the substance of Him in us for which we hoped and Love is the goal of our faith and we are being perfected in Love, or a partaker of His divine nature. He being the Head of "The body" (who we are) is a "oneness" Christ prayed for.

My question would be, "does the greek say our testimoony should be Christ HAS COME or IS COME and how pertinent is that "testimony" according to scripture itself. Because the scriptures speak of those longing to SEE the coming of the Son of man but will not see it as well as the epistles stating, "where is the sign of His coming" so they were actually looking for the sign. Or the world will not see me any longer but you will see me, perhaps "recognize Him" in another?

Just a few thoughts to throw out there. Actually I have a link elsewhere to an interesting article on this very thought I'll post sometime here tommorrow or the next day, take it or leave it sort of thing. But it perked my ears up.

In Him

Star

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

The Second Coming (and the End of the World) was promised by Jesus to be within the generation contemporary with him (Matt 10:7, 23, 16:28, 24:32-34, Mark 9:1, 13:24-30, Luke 9:27, 21:25-32). Paul also said this (1 Thess 4:15, 17, Heb 1:2, 10:37, 9:26 ["now in the end of the world he hath appeared"], 1 Cor 7:29; also 1 John 2:18, James 5:8, 1 Pet 4:7 ["end of all things is at hand"]). Jesus says that some of his listeners will "not taste death" until he returns in glory (Matt 16:28, Mark 9:1, 13:30, Luke 9:27). See also Matt 4:17, John 5:25, 12:31, Rev 1:1, 3, 3:11, 22:6-12, on the imminence of the last days ("soon", "shortly").
Paul and John say that their own time is the end of the world because the signs have already appeared (Heb 9:26, 1 John 2:18 ).

Fake
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FFT · Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:00 am Post subject:

Signs point to "revolutionary attempting to establish rule in the line of David," not "messiah."
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

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Star · Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:25 am Post subject:

Fake,

Good verses there, theres tons to think on really. I believe theres a scripture that states He set the "world" in their hearts, so which "world" is it? What are the "elements"? Or is "The Old" that which is passing away that which passes away in light of the New? A world without end? Never destroy the earth again? To be honest I'm not perfectly clear on these things, is it the "natural landscape" which is lit with lightning? Or is it the inner landscape of the inner Kingdom? Some attest to see the Kingdom come with an observing eye whereas Christ says it does not.

We have the "Letter" of the word and the "Spirit" of the word, when I write to those I'm not keeping watch over knowledge there is no need to "rightly divide it" and in rightly dividing it can be something that requires an effort on our part and a love for the truth Himself.

Also there is searching the scriptures thinking IN THEM you have "eternal life" (to know God) rather then a coming to Him that you might. Some equate these as equal but again Christ seems not to.

What of knowledge? It will cease? When and why? In our experience? In the living reality we move in In Christ? What of prophesies FAILING? Is that true? What does that mean? What of knowing every mystery there is to know correctly without love and be completely nothing at all? That means there seems to be that great possibility.

That which is Perfect is God alone and God is Love and His love is PERFECTED IN US. Could all these things mean nothing in grand scheme of things and in the receiving the END of our faith? Both begining and End is Christ Himself, the Author and finisher of it IN US. Are some things obstacles to overcome in the search our hearts embark upon? It looks that way. This is some real good stuff to meditate on.

Three things REMAIN, Faith, hope and Love, the rest passes or ceases or fails? In this, is it God (Love) that remains? That Love alone surpasses all else and is what our intented purpose is in Christ? What would that look like in us? How is it manifested? The scriptures share on this as well.

Thinking on what remains is the Hope of Glory which is Christ in us and those having the "Faith" of Christ finally realized within them because Faith IS the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED FOR, and ofcourse Love the outworking of the gift of faith in us and the partaking of His Divine nature as we are perfected in Love. It really pulls together the "As He IS (Love) so are WE IN this world, and the true test of being "known by God" is the "Loving of ones brother".

In Him

Star

Adam_Love · Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:16 pm Post subject:

Somewhere, if I'm not mistaken, it is written that the second coming will not be visible, but it is inside of you. Something like that. Anyone know that verse??

Star · Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:33 am Post subject:

Matt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matt 24:27 For AS the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and NOW IS, when the dead shall HEAR THE VOICE of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming IN THE CLOUDS with great power and glory.

The Clouds? Who are they?

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a CLOUD OF WITNESSES (People) and His rain is in the clouds and He sends them.

Now Clouds drop rain, BUT there are clouds WITHOUT RAIN.

Duet 32:2 My DOCTRINE shall drop AS the rain...

Job 5:10 Who GIVETH RAIN upon the earth (those who dwell there, for we in Christ are seated in the HEAVENS ALREADY), and "sendeth waters" upon the fields (Paul spoke about THEM being Gods feild)

In Short Rain is an awesome study, and the Clouds are those who carry the rain or not and he sends BOTH. Even those born of the Spirit seated in "heavenly places" as the clouds go where the Wind blows them, all spiritual truths. So everyone can indeed SEE but not "perceive" if one is not given eyes to. "Lord WHEN did we SEE YOU"??? He came not the way "expected" but when HE was sick, naked, thirsty. Paul was a "Messenger" received as He said as an angel and HIS SICKNESS (when I was sick) was not HIS TRIAL but a TRIAL TO THEM and they RECEIVED HIM. As Jesus would say when you did it unto the least of these my brothers you did it TO ME.

Yet Jesus confronted the Pharisees about being able to tell whether it would rain by beholding the natural skies, seeing a cloud and saying it will rain but they could not see God coming to them in the person of Jesus Christ. In wondering about Him they consult the scriptures but their knowledge of them did nothing to help them recognize Him unlike His disciples and those HE CHOSE and it would not be flesh and blood that revealed it to them but God Himself. God keeps watch over knowledge and He is the giver of revelation alone.

Here we find those "Looking for something" and notice the wording they adress "the fathers" so they are not those in this world as we commonly understand the term

2Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the FATHERS fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

So water and fire are also a great study. As in the days of Noah who were kept safely in the Ark from the water I'm trying to understand being kept from fire moreso. It talks about "the elements"

Note in Gal 4:3 Even so we, when WE WERE CHILDREN, were in bondage under the ELEMENTS of the world:

Now in speaking of children, they are as a child LOCKED UP (bondage) under the law itself and God himself bound them YET it speaks of being locked up UNTIL THE TIME SET BY THE FATHER (No man knoweth?) I'm not sure, just pondering these things theres so much to really meditate on.

Again in Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly ELEMENTS, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Note here...

2Peter 2:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the ELEMENTS shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and THE WORKS that are therein shall be BURNED UP.

1Corinth 3:15 If any man's WORK shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be SAVED; yet so as BY FIRE.

1Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be TRIED WITH FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Theres so much in the scriptures that make you stop and think and grow in understanding. I havent arrived yet in full understanding of anything myself but my ears are opened and I desire to. Everything begins to "run together".

Adam I'll look

In Him
Star

Star · Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:37 am Post subject:

Adam... Is this the one your looking for?

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].

Star

Star · Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:44 am Post subject:

Just adding a few other verses to consider....

Psalm 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. IN THEM hath he set a "tabernacle for the sun"...

Lightning... Natural or Spiritual?

Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that THEY may go, and SAY unto thee, HERE WE ARE? (Can lightning speak?)

Psalm 97:4 His lightnings ENLIGHTENED the world.

World where?

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in HIS TIME: also he hath set the WORLD IN THEIR HEARTS, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. (Unsearchable as Paul says?)

Isaiah 26:9... for when thy judgments [are] IN the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN righteousness. ( Jesus said, "NOW" is the time of judgement, yet Paul speaks about being judged that we might not be condemned with the world. Jesus saying He came not to condemn but to save, for the world stood condemned already?)

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world SEETH ME NO MORE; but YE SEE ME: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

Then Jesus explaining the seeing Him no more and being sorrowful is likened to a Woman giving birth to a child (Perhaps Him IN US?) and seeing Him again but not after the flesh but after the Spirit. As the Root and Offspring of David (a man after Gods HEART) they bear within them the Spiritual fruit of Christ by abiding in the Vine, giving birth to Christ in them.

In Him

Star

Zathrus · Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:52 am Post subject:

metothezero · Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:57 am Post subject:

Fake, you confuse the second coming with that of the coming of the kingdom.

Both yourself and Zathrus need to research the different instances of the coming of the Kingdom (and in so doing Christ coming with His Kingdom) and that of Christ's second return.

But, I haven't the time now to debate this topic with you. I was merely pointing my imput that I disagree and would like to discuss this matter more fully, but I have my hands in too many topics as of yet.

I point you to a small book entitled 'The Gospel and the Kingdom' by George Eldon Ladd. It is a introduction into a theory of the here, but not yet aspect of the kingdom. The kingdom was introduced when Christ came to this earth. There was an aspect of it that was here. Yet there is allusions within the Scripture to there also being an aspect when it will be fulfilled within the future. It is erroneous to say that all of the kingdom has arrived (Covenantals) and just as erroneous to say that it is completely within the future (Dispensationals). We like to call ourselves a historic premillenialist or kingdom theologians...we are pretty much half-breeds. Although, I tend to lean more toward the Covenantal side (it is the Reformed in me).

Look that book up, tell me what you think.

Also Fake, a little side note: Paul didn't write Hebrews; Luke did. But Luke being the author is my opinion. Yet, you should note that no serious scholar still believes that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. Some even attribute it to Phoebe...but none to Paul. Smile

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Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall.

Zathrus · Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:05 am Post subject:

I think Barnabas wrote it. Laughing

Zathrus · Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:12 am Post subject: