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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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 Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject: "Universalistic Dualism" |
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______apocatastasis & metothezero
_______One-on-One Debate! 
I am looking to debate an able and willing person on whether or not the
Bible teaches that all mankind will eventually be saved. Any takers? |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| I most humbly assume that I am able. As well as am fully willing to discuss with you this idea of universalism. First, make your claim. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Meto,
My claim:
God will reconcile all sinners to Himself through His Son (Colossian 1:20). |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:30 am Post subject: |
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I must confess friend, you have stumped me on this one. But claim not victory too fast; you will need more than one verse (as you so rightly know) that proves your theory. I would have no problem claiming that this verse upon first read does seem to prove Universalism, as I have many that would discredit the theory. Therefore, if I cannot see (as there is not) contradictions within Scripture, I must confess that while my understanding of this verse would seem to suggest that of Universalism, it cannot as there are many which blatantly deny the doctrine.
With that said, I can quote perhaps Calvin:
| Quote: | | Should any one, on the pretext of the universality of the expression, move a question in reference to devils, whether Christ be their peace maker also? I answer, No, not even of wicked men: though I confess that there is a difference, inasmuch as the benefit of redemption is offered to the latter, but not to the former. This, however, has nothing to do with Paul's words, which include nothing else than this, that it is through Christ alone, that, all creatures, who have any connection at all with God, cleave to him. Calvin's Commentaries |
But, even I (a devout Calvinist) do not think this explanation appealing; actually, I do not even think it an explanation but rather an assumption.
With that said, I will have to concede, as I have, that this apparently does prove Universalism. Therefore, what other passage have you concerning your doctrine? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Meto,
What do you make of this?
| Quote: | Eph 3:14 On this behalf am I bowing my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 after Whom every kindred in the heavens and on earth is being named... |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Nice to see you reply. I have been attempting to understand that verse that you presented earlier. Yet, I think I will hold off on my answer to the question until a later time. I think you need to look at Ephesians 1:10 and notice the striking similarities between that and the Collosian verse you presented. You need also notice that while almost identical, the Collosian verse does seem to leave out one vitally important phrase that the Ephesian verse includes. Giving reason to believe that Paul thought it understood that the Collosians would know this phrase to be truthful, yet he inserted it into the Ephesian verse. Either way, since their similarities are so almost identical, and since one does not promote the claims of Universalism; there is no reason to conclude that the second (Collosian) does either.
Now,
What translation is that?
Let us look at a couple more:
| Quote: | from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. - NIV
of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named, - YLT
from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, - ASV
from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, - NASB
from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named. - HCSB |
The preposition used here is εκ, it is a preposition denoting orgin. From God every tribe or every family gets its name. And why not? After all, is He not the one who created them? Can He not name them as He pleases? Would we expect anything different? Would we not expect Him to name them whatever, whether they are sent to an eternity of death or one of life? 
And, if you attempt to make the argument that this verse is describing that of being named AFTER God, I would then argue the same way. We are His, whether we are damned or not. We are His creation, we have His name upon us, as His possessions.
Either way, what reason do you have for presenting this verse? |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| metothezero wrote: | Nice to see you reply. I have been attempting to understand that verse that you presented earlier. Yet, I think I will hold off on my answer to the question until a later time. Until then, I think you need to look at Ephesians 1:10 and notice the striking similarities between that and the Colossian verse you presented. You need also notice that while almost identical, the Collosian verse does seem to leave out one vitally important phrase that the Ephesian verse includes. Giving reason to believe that Paul thought it understood that the Colossians would know this phrase to be truthful, yet he inserted it into the Ephesian verse. Either way, since their similarities are so almost identical, and since one does not promote the claims of Universalism; there is no reason to conclude that the second (Colossian) does either.
Now,
What translation is that?
Let us look at a couple more:
| Quote: | from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. - NIV
of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named, - YLT
from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, - ASV
from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, - NASB
from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named. - HCSB |
The preposition used here is εκ, it is a preposition denoting orgin. From God every tribe or every family gets its name. And why not? After all, is He not the one who created them? Can He not name them as He pleases? Would we expect anything different? Would we not expect Him to name them whatever, whether they are sent to an eternity of death or one of life?
And, if you attempt to make the argument that this verse is describing that of being named AFTER God, I would then argue the same way. We are His, whether we are damned or not. We are His creation, we have His name upon us, as His possessions.
Either way, what reason do you have for presenting this verse? |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| HA! I attempted to edit my first response but I forgot that you cannot edit on a one on one, so I pushed the quote button instead and quoted myself. Of course you know I meant to do that, I would never be that absent minded. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Adam,
Compare Ephesians 3:15 with 2Tim 2:19:
| Quote: | | Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. |
Any thoughts? |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 2 Timothy 2:19 The Lord Knows those who are His, and
Everyone who names the name of the Lord
must turn away from unrighteousness - HCSB |
We must also remember that the passage in 2 Timothy is considering an action of the person; the person that names His name. Whereas the passage in Ephesians is that of God doing the name. One is the person naming the name of Christ. One is God naming the different tribes. They are not speaking of the same thing. One is an action of a human naming the name of God. One is the action of God naming the name of humans.
The comparison is not there. Perhaps you should have asked me to contrast the two.
What comparison did you have in mind beside of them both speaking of 'names'? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Adam,
Does it make sense that Paul would bow both knees to the Father because he just found out that God named the families of the earth and the heavens or that the families of the heavens and earth are being named after the Father?
As for Eph.1:10, this verse, like its co-text in colossians, declares that ALL things will be headed up in Christ. What do you make of this?
And as for 2 Tim 2:19, it seems to me that both this verse and ephesians 3:15 testify to the intimate relationship of love between God and man, wherein we find a new and true identity in Him as His adopted children. The usage of the word /name signifies the true nature of that being named. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Does it make sense that Paul would bow both knees to the Father because he just found out that God named the families of the earth and the heavens or that the families of the heavens and earth are being named after the Father? |
Neither. If you consider the specific context in question, Paul does not say that he is bowing his knees to the Father because the Father has named the families of the earth nor because they are named after Him; rather he is bowing his knees before the Father because of their being brought near by the blood of the Messiah (2:13). Paul begins chapter three with 'For this reason...', which he interupts with with a parentheses from 3:2 - 3:13 and takes it up again at verse 14.
Paul is saying that for the reason of them which were far away being brought near he bows his knees to the Father who names all the families of the earth.
He is not saying that he bows his knees because the Father names all the families; rather, he bows his knees to the Father who does name all the families BECAUSE He would bring those afar off near through the blood of Christ.
Understand?
And it is still 'from' the Father, not necessarily 'after' the Father that these families are named.
| Quote: | | As for Eph.1:10, this verse, like its co-text in colossians, declares that ALL things will be headed up in Christ. What do you make of this? |
The Ephesian verse declares that they will be brought together in the Messiah (just as the Colossian verse does), yet it adds that those things in Heaven and those things that are on earth IN HIM.
We would obviously not say that there is wicked within heaven, that demonic or depraved beings are in Heaven. So I cannot allow an argument of the label of beings 'in Heaven' being those of the wicked nature.
And since we are told that the things on Earth that are IN HIM (Him, being Christ) will be brought together in the Messiah; we cannot either allow for any such thought of the wicked being within this class. As it would be heresy to believe that any such wicked or evil can be 'in Christ'.
What have we then? The Ephesian passage says that all things in heaven and all things on Earth IN HIM will be brought together in the Messiah.
The Collosian passage says that all things in heaven and all things on Earth will be brought together in the Messiah.
I pointed out the Ephesian passage to show Paul's line of thought and to prove that the Collosian passage does not prove the Universalistic claim; rather it is the same as the Ephesian with the understood part of 'in Him' left off.
| Quote: | | And as for 2 Tim 2:19, it seems to me that both this verse and ephesians 3:15 testify to the intimate relationship of love between God and man, wherein we find a new and true identity in Him as His adopted children. The usage of the word /name signifies the true nature of that being named. |
Sir, address the point. The passage within Timothy speaks of man naming Christ and therefore requiring man to turn away from unrighteousness. The passage within Ephesians describes God naming the families of the earth. The passages are not to be drawn together to form some manner of theory strictly based upon their usage of the same word of 'name'. They are seperate passages dealing with seperate issues.
One addresses an action of man, one an action of God.
The Ephesian passage really speaks nothing of the love of God for man. It simply gives the idea that from God all the families of the Earth derive their name. The Timothian passage likewise speaks of perhaps the love that man should have for the God they name by turning away from unrighteousness, but this in no way warrants any attempted correalation between the two passages. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hi again, Adam.
I was wrong to bring up 2 tim 2:19. Award yourself a point.
| Quote: | | The Ephesian verse declares that they will be brought together in the Messiah (just as the Colossian verse does), yet it adds that those things in Heaven and those things that are on earth IN HIM. |
Obviously those headed up in Christ are in Him. Ephesians 1:10 is saying that all things will be headed up in Him, and it would be tautological to render this, "all things in Christ will be headed up in Him." Christ is already the Head of those in Him. Understand?
| Quote: | | We would obviously not say that there is wicked within heaven, that demonic or depraved beings are in Heaven. So I cannot allow an argument of the label of beings 'in Heaven' being those of the wicked nature. |
Of course. As we were once wicked and estranged from God, He became or head. He will head up everyone in due time.
| Quote: | | The Collosian passage says that all things in heaven and all things on Earth will be brought together in the Messiah. |
Exactly. 
| Quote: | | I pointed out the Ephesian passage to show Paul's line of thought and to prove that the Collosian passage does not prove the Universalistic claim; rather it is the same as the Ephesian with the understood part of 'in Him' left off. |
How does the "in Him" part rule out universalism. All will be reconciled in Him.
| Quote: | | The Ephesian passage really speaks nothing of the love of God for man. It simply gives the idea that from God all the families of the Earth derive their name. |
Adam, your interpretation is out of place, as God's naming all families (btw, does this mean that God named your family King?) has not relevance to the point being made. Rather, being of God's family, heirs of Christ (verse 6), is the idea being conveyed. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I was wrong to bring up 2 tim 2:19. Award yourself a point. |
SCORE ONE FOR THE CALVINIST! Like the name? I took the liberty of naming my team 'calvinists'...I'll let you name your own: Uni's, Uni-men? Whatever...
| Quote: | | Adam, your interpretation is out of place, as God's naming all families (btw, does this mean that God named your family King?) has not relevance to the point being made. Rather, being of God's family, heirs of Christ (verse 6), is the idea being conveyed. |
Actually, we were the McGregors. Yet there was a McGregor uprising (we were honory then too) and they were forced to change their names. And what better way to get back at those ruling authorities than to change their names to King. Now these people had a bunch of 'kings' causing them problems!! What can I say, we've always been honory and smart...but onto the topic!
ACTUALLY it has every relevance. Let us look at the verse in question.
'From whom [God] every family in heaven and on earth is named.'
Named what? It doesn't say. Named after who? It doesn't say.
All that is said is that every family in heaven and on earth gets their name from God. That God names every family in heaven and on earth. This is all the text says. From God every family is named.
How then can you say that God's naming the families has no relevance? It has every relevance, as that is what is specifically said.
How then can you further say that the point is that they are God's family when it mentions nothing of family, nor of these people being of or under the name of God. All that is said is that from God they are named. This point is mute, my friend, you haven't a leg to stand upon.
| Quote: | | Obviously those headed up in Christ are in Him. Ephesians 1:10 is saying that all things will be headed up in Him, and it would be tautological to render this, "all things in Christ will be headed up in Him." Christ is already the Head of those in Him. Understand? |
Not at all. The term 'in Him' (to answer your other question) rules out universalism because it sets a class of people seperate from the others. There are those 'in Christ' and those not 'in Christ'. You are either 'in the Republican party' or you're not 'in the Republican party' (hehe).
Paul makes this statement: All things in heaven and all things on earth 'in Christ' will be brought together 'in Christ'.
I have been over this before; but I must do it again.
Being brought together 'in Christ' is the goal, it is what will happen. All those said people will be brought together. How will they be brought together; they will be brough together 'in Christ'. This is established, what is questioned is who exactly this is referring to.
We have two groups listed (1) those in heaven, (2) those on earth 'in Christ'.
(1) In heaven is obviously not referring to all those on earth, and all those in hell (whether the duration is eternal or temporary). It is referring to a group of people that do not include everyone.
(2) On earth 'in Christ' is not referring to everyone either. It is not referring to those 'in heaven' as we have established have already been 'set aside' (if you will). So then, can we say that everyone is 'in Christ'? Not if we are to be biblical. There is a class within Scripture of those that are 'in Christ'. You know this is truthfull, let us not venture down that path when it is unneeded. So, we have a class of people that are not those 'in heaven' and are not those 'outside of Christ'.
Let us then return. We have three groups (perhaps four). Those 'in heaven'. those 'in Christ' and those 'outside of Christ'.
Paul says the first two will be brought togther; he speaks not of the last group.
That simple phrase 'in Him' narrows down the claim of Paul from a universalistic one to a orthodox Christian one... |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 'From whom [God] every family in heaven and on earth is named.'
Named what? It doesn't say. Named after who? It doesn't say.
All that is said is that every family in heaven and on earth gets their name from God. That God names every family in heaven and on earth. This is all the text says. From God every family is named.
How then can you say that God's naming the families has no relevance? It has every relevance, as that is what is specifically said.
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I would have better asked you to clarify on what you mean when you say that God names every family. If you mean that God gives every family their surname, then I fail to see how this reading fits the context.
| Quote: | | How then can you further say that the point is that they are God's family when it mentions nothing of family, nor of these people being of or under the name of God. All that is said is that from God they are named. This point is mute, my friend, you haven't a leg to stand upon. |
No leg? Bummer. I do wonder, though, why the Greek word for family (patria) is in the singular? Have you an explanation which concords with your reading? And could you explain to us why Paul, considering the context of Ephesians 3:15, would use the word 'family' in a sense other than the sense of God's relationship to His children?
| Quote: | | The term 'in Him' (to answer your other question) rules out universalism because it sets a class of people seperate from the others. There are those 'in Christ' and those not 'in Christ'. You are either 'in the Republican party' or you're not 'in the Republican party' (hehe). |
The verse does not say that those in Christ will be headed up in Christ. That would be a silly redundancy, you see. Rather, all things will be headed up in Christ. As such, this verse does not contrast those in Christ with those out of Christ, but instead declares that everyone - even those who are out of Christ prior to the time when all will be headed up in Christ - will find unity in Christ, the head.
| Quote: | | Being brought together 'in Christ' is the goal, it is what will happen. All those said people will be brought together. How will they be brought together; they will be brough together 'in Christ'. This is established, what is questioned is who exactly this is referring to. |
Agreed.
| Quote: | | We have two groups listed (1) those in heaven, (2) those on earth 'in Christ'. |
Actually, it says that all in heaven and earth will be headed up in Christ.
| Quote: | | 1) In heaven is obviously not referring to all those on earth, and all those in hell (whether the duration is eternal or temporary). It is referring to a group of people that do not include everyone. |
Perhaps, although many scholars would disagree and rather contend that the phrase, "in heaven and earth" is an idiomatic expression. Such an expression, different schoalrs argue, may mean obe of several things, some examples being: a.) all classes of people, especially Jews and Gentiles, c.) those who believe in this age and those who will not believe until the consummation of the ages.
Let us explore some examples where this phrase appears in the NT.
1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
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Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
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Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
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Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
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Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
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Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
Any thoughts?
| Quote: | | Let us then return. We have three groups (perhaps four). Those 'in heaven'. those 'in Christ' and those 'outside of Christ' |
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I do not see how this is the case, but am interested in hearing you out. |
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