Ongoing Discussion

composer · Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:08 am Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

Composer responds: I anticipated that excuse. It stands to reason that if "any" who merely have the "fear of the Lord" within themselves are promised that because of this it shall protect them, and they are assured that they shall not be even "visited" by evil, then GOD Himself would unambiguously NEVER be visited with evil either.

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Composer, please don't start new threads on the same topic! ThankX, Nobby

[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 01-25-2003).]

changeup2010 · Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 6:32 am Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

composer,

I'm done talking with you until you can seperate out what I say and what you say, better. You are distinguishing what I say from what you say in a manner that you even understand what is being said. Example.
You were trying to quote me:

quote:
- - - -
changeup2010 wrote: quote:

Precisely, but Jesus is NOT GOD but only His Son and Supreme representative.That's a whole other discussion.

Composer responds: I agree!

Now, from the word "Precisely" to the word "representative" was your statement. "That's a whole other discussion." is my statement. But I can't tell the difference. Then you say you "agree". Agree with what? That it's a whole other discussion or that you think that I think that Jesus and God are two seperate entities. It's confusing when you don't seperate things out.

quote
Quote:

Composer responds: Mortals DIE!, JESUS DIED, and as your quote points out, but (another topic) HOW could JESUS sin as your quote states, yet we know that Jesus "did no sin" ? (1 Pet. 2:22)

Jesus was a sacrifice, the perfect lamb. We die here on earth but we have been promised eternal life. Those that sin and are not forgiven die, but are not promised eternal life. they receive eternal suffering, which is death- without God. And who puts them through that suffering? Satan. God surely wouldn't do that if he does no evil, which I believe as well. So, yes, it is a spiritual death only. Our life here is of no consequence, it's not important.

I'll have to finish later, really busy, sorry.

[This message has been edited by changeup2010 (edited 01-24-2003).]

composer · Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 5:07 pm Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

I go to extreme lengths to show precisely "who" said "what" to avoid confusion. Unfortunately the odd misunderstabding occurs, even with the best of intentions of me trying to prevent that. I have re-done the entire post and hopefully this new following layout will remove any confusion. I shall try to ensure errors do not occur again?

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changeup2010 wrote:

composer,
quote:
Composer wrote: I anticipated that excuse. It stands to reason that if "any" who merely have the "fear of the Lord" within themselves are promised that because of this it shall protect them, and they are assured that they shall not be even "visited" by evil, then GOD Himself would unambiguously NEVER be visited with evil either.

changeup2010 wrote: How can that be, when you can fall away from God?

Composer responds: The comparison you draw is unrealistic. Can GOD "fall" away from righteousness? This precisely is the point, that because He is "without variableness . . ." (James 1:17) evil may NEVER visit Him and if WE Likewise "stand firm" in His righteousness, then we neither shall be visited by evil. However , if we "falter" then we become susceptible to the "consequences" of evil, once more.

changeup2010 wrote: Evil is around whether you want it to be or not; hence temptation.

If this was the case there would be no need to harp about the fact of temptation and Satan.

Composer responds: Of course "evil" is all around, the "evil / sinfulness of MAN". Proof: -

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jer. 17:9) KJS

I really find your logic "disturbing"?

For example, when God sent the flood to destroy all the "wicked", -

For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. {destroy : Heb. blot out} (Gen. 7:4)

According to your scenario, God does not destroy "all" the "wicked" He had allegedly made, but only selectively destroys the wicked "mortals", saving the few righteous (i.e. Noah and his family Gen. 6:8)) but then allegedly allows your most evil, sinful, blasphemous creatures to continue on regardless, thus polluting the earth just as before?

Your "logic" leaves me speechless?

However I must continue: -

God says that He never "tempts" anyone. Proof: -

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: {evil: or, evils} (James 1:13) KJS

But you are saying that God is a Liar and actually "created" little evil beings that tempt us, and then "somehow" this god can apparently "claim immunity" that the temptations are nothing to do with him?
God is NOT the author of confusion . . . (1 Cor. 14:33)

Such a concept is absurd!

God tells us who is to blame for everything that MAN DOES - Proof: -

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:14 -15)

NB - . . . man is tempted, of his own lust, . . .

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are [the things] which defile a man : . . . (Matt. 15:19 -20)

There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. (Mark 7:15)

God's "evil" is better expressed as the "consequences / repercussions of our "disobedient thoughts, words or deeds". We "SIN" when we disobey GOD. The "wages" of that sin is Death. (Rom. 6:23)

Adam "sinned" when he directly disobeyed GOD. No other "creature" was involved. God warned Adam "directly" - (Gen. 2:16-17)

We are all inherently punished because of that Man's direct disobedience. No other "being / creature" was either blamed or even involved. It's "alleged" involvement was with the Woman Eve only. Adam was tempted by the Woman. (Gen. 3:6)

. . . sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:15)

God's "evil" is simply the "repercussions / consequences" brought upon us, because of that disobedience" - A "CAUSE and EFFECT" scenario.

- - - -
quote:

Composer wrote: Come now, we know that every word spoken in the Legitimate Bible is God's message to us, and that every single Word or event has at least a "dual purpose", that of a "parable / allegory / exhort to us etc".

You can not legitimately "dismiss" what exposes your theories, as merely the "Words of men" and somehow does not apply. For it is agreed I pray, that the Text of the Bible is God's Word, given to us as our Guide to our Salvation. If it is merely "man's Words" (if in this example merely David's words with no Divine purpose to those words) then you may as well chuck your Bible into the bin?changeup2010 wrote: quote: Now you are saying that if I speak the word of God to others and I say certain things about God's nature they must be true. The fact is that it is a man's song to God.

Composer responds: So "all" the Psalms are just David's "Words" put into Songs with no Divine Purpose?

Who was the Author of the Bible, GOD or MEN?

Which other Scriptures do you consider "Divinely Inspired" and which are simply the "Opinions / Words" of MEN?

Your LIST please?

For example, you are happy to quote many other Scriptures and claim, (I quote) - "My argument is not lost, it is safely embedded in scripture." (unquote) - (My Ref: #01)

However, NOW you say that David's Psalms are not "Divine Scriptures" but just a "song" of David's, and simply David's "opinion" (I quote) - "This is a song from David saying his point of view.?". (My Ref: #02)

I give you another case: - You quoted: -

Matt. 25:41 and Rev. 12:9. Now according to your theory, on what evidence do you claim that these are to be considered as completely "accurate", and not just Matthew's or John's "opinions" ?

It currently appears that when Scriptures decimate your theories you consider them "opinions / simple songs" but when you wish to claim something, whatever Scripture you quote is conveniently authentic when it appears that it "might" suit your purpose?

I myself consider the "entire" Bible, as God's Divinely inspired Word, and Not just "selected portions" of it.

We need now to establish precisely "which" portions you consider as Divinely Inspired or "mere opinions" before we continue any further?

- - - -
quote:

Composer wrote: Precisely, but Jesus is NOT GOD but only His Son and Supreme representative.changeup2010 wrote: That's a whole other discussion.

Composer responds: I agree!

- - - -
quote:

Composer wrote: I already have as my follow up remarks clearly explain.

changeup2010 wrote: Nope. Nice try on the dismissal though.

Composer responds: I dismiss nothing. The Scriptural evidence speak for themselves. All of them!

- - - -
quote:

Composer wrote: SIMPLE. The "devil" is merely a "metaphor / term / expression" used to describe those who "behave/ think "carnally / therefore slander" God's Divine Principles and His Spiritual ways.

changeup2010 wrote: How can a metaphor have followers? It is clear that the "devil" is in a leadership role in that scripture, otherwise it would not say "his angels".

Composer responds: But I explained in detail that a "devil" is merely a term / expression / metaphor describing "any slanderer" and "angels / angelos" is a term / expression describing "messengers", both Mortal and / or angelic?

In this case the "angels / messengers" are merely "false mortal messengers" or mortal followers of "mortal devils = false teachers", who support those "false teachers" in proclaiming, teaching and perpetuating their "false doctrines"?

I have yet to discover "what" you claim your alleged Satan / devil / demons etc precisely to be?

- - - -
quote:

composer wrote: Just what kind of a god do you believe GOD is. "If" God gave us an inherent Adamic cursed nature AND created "evil beings" to tempt us, just what chance would we have with all those obstacles in our path?

changeup2010 wrote: If I was God, I would've done the same thing.

Composer responds: What a relief you are not god then?

- - - -
changeup2010 wrote: It only proves that if you want to be with God, you would strive to be like him. That is the beauty of free will (ours). It proves to God that we love him and want to be with him.

Composer responds: Obeying GOD comprises of "Faith and Works". Jesus teaches that simple fact. Proof: -

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. (Matt. 26:39) KJS

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. {willing, remove: Gr. willing to remove} (Luke 22:42) KJS
JESUS therefore clearly devoted his entire "Free Will" to doing the Will of GOD, rather than JESUS following his own "self-will".

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:20)
"ANY" alleged "External influence" is made redundant. Proof: -

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jer. 17:9) and also-

There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. (Mark 7:15)

- - - -
quote:

Composer wrote: Heavenly angels can never die (Luke 20:36)

The "wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23)
Heavenly angels can never die (Luke 20:36)

changeup2010 wrote: I never said they can die. The "wages of sin is death" is spiritual death, not literal death. We would all be dead if that was the case, "for all sin and fall short of the glory of God." . . .

Composer responds: But we DO DIE and billions have died in the past and continue to die every day?

Therefore our Death is Literal, NOT merely Spiritual?

If the "wages of sin" were ONLY a Spiritual Death, then none of us would ever "Literally" Die?

Adam and Eve were condemned to death and they Both died.

Were their deaths "Spiritual" or "Literal" / both / other?

changeup2010 wrote: . . . "for all sin and fall short of the glory of God."

Composer responds: Mortals DIE!, JESUS DIED, and as your quote points out, but (another topic) HOW could JESUS sin as your quote states, yet we know that Jesus "did no sin" ? (1 Pet. 2:22)

There lies the answer to the precise nature / identity of the Satan / devil !

Conversely, angels NEVER DIE (Luke 20:36), so they can NEVER SIN ! (Cyclic reasoning, as explained previously)

- - - -
changeup2010 wrote: We are promised eternal life with God in heaven, . . .

Composer responds: Not all shall be successful, else the Judgment Seat of Christ becomes a mere "rubber stamp. And one can not "separate" sheep from goats, if "all" are righteous ? (Matt. 25:33)

For many are called, but few [are] chosen . (Matt. 22:14) KJS

Diaglott RHS renders: For there are Many invited, but Few selected. (Matt. 22:14)

changeup2010 wrote: . . . the angels were never promised that.

Composer responds: They already have it.
Luke 20:35-36 proves it, and also proves that the "angels" were found "worthy" to receive it.

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:35-36)

To "claim" that some became "unworthy" implies that god is fallible and incapable of selecting those "truly worthy" for appointment to heavenly angelic status.

The following extract taken from the Book of Job, also exposes the "anthropomorphic" nonsense of the claim that "heavenly angels" can later rebel against God: -

For he knoweth vain men: he seeth wickedness also; will he not then consider [it]? (Job 11:11)

How much more would God therefore "consider" appointing those "worthy" of heavenly, angelic & HOLY stature?

Re: "HOLY" angels see: - (Matt. 25:31; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26; Rev. 14:10)

changeup2010 wrote: They may live forever, . . .

Composer responds: The FACT is, that because you admit that they Live forever, means that they NEVER DIE.

As explained previously, heavenly angels "never die" then they can "never sin" (Cyclic reasoning)

No sin = no fallen angels = no Satan being = no devil being = no demon beings.

changeup2010 wrote: . . . but they may not be with God.

Composer responds: Scriptural evidence to support your theories please, that is, of course, if you are able to validly demonstrate that the Scriptures you may present are not just the author's "opinions" as you have considered "other" Scriptures to be. I am not purposefully attempting to be cynical, but you have now opened a "Pandora's Box" in claiming that some / all Scriptures are mere "opinions" ?

You also ignore the fact that angels are already accounted "worthy" and have already obtained "that world" and the resurrection from the dead. They can die no more. Luke 20:35-36 again confirms this.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. (1 Cor. 15:53)

Angels never die. (Luke 20:36)

Does that make them therefore "immortal / incorruptible" or something other? (Scriptures please?)

NB - Not "inherently" immortal, for Only GOD hath "inherent" immortality (1 Tim. 6:16), but "immortal / incorruptible" as Christ was made immortal / incorruptible? Proof: - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor. 15:52-54)
changeup2010 wrote: I never said he (Composer writes: i.e. Satan) was an "angel". But let me ask you this; how can you say there are no fallen angels when it says in Matthew 25:41 - [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (My Ref: 13#01)

Composer responds: I have already explained the meaning of this Scripture in reasonable detail to you. I have yet to discover precisely "what" you claim your alleged "Satan / devil" etc. to be, and your alleged evidence to support your claims?

- - - -
changeup 2010 wrote: I'll have to get the rest later, gotta go for now. Been real busy, bare with me.

Composer responds: No problem.

changeup2010 · Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 8:00 am Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

Just didn't know if you saw this and are ignoring it or if you sincerely missed it.

quote:
Composer responds: Mortals DIE!, JESUS DIED, and as your quote points out, but (another topic) HOW could JESUS sin as your quote states, yet we know that Jesus "did no sin" ? (1 Pet. 2:22)

Jesus was a sacrifice, the perfect lamb. We die here on earth but we have been promised eternal life. Those that sin and are not forgiven die, but are not promised eternal life. they receive eternal suffering, which is death- without God. And who puts them through that suffering? Satan. God surely wouldn't do that if he does no evil, which I believe as well. So, yes, it is a spiritual death only. Our life here is of no consequence, it's not important.

I'll post more later.

composer · Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:16 pm Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

I was under the impression that you got angry with me if I dared to even look like the current topic was varying, now you are angry with me because I did not respond to your change of topic?

I can't win whichever way?

You have yet to establish "what" your alleged "Satan / devil demons" etc are, so I will not budge until those initial issues are resolved.

Also I remind you of the following you have yet to establish (I wrote): -

We need now to establish precisely "which" portions of the Bible you consider as Divinely Inspired or "mere opinions" before we continue any further?

Composer

composer · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 4:03 pm Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

changeup2010 wrote:
quote:Originally posted by composer:
I was under the impression that you got angry with me if I dared to even look like the current topic was varying, now you are angry with me because I did not respond to your change of topic?
I can't win whichever way?

I'm not mad, I just didn't know if you skipped it on accident.

quote:
You have yet to establish "what" your alleged "Satan / devil demons" etc are, so I will not budge until those initial issues are resolved.

changeup2010 wrote: Why do I have to claim if he's one thing or another? He exists that's all I need to know. Just as God exists, we read of Him in the bible, so to do we read of Satan in the bible, so he exists.

Composer responds: That is ridiculous. You are playing abstract semantics. I have demonstrated that the WORD Satan is merely a Hebrew WORD / METAPHOR used to describe an ADVERSARY, ANY ADVERSARY or OPPOSER. You claim that the Word Satan implies / confirms a Supernatural "being" of some kind? a "He" as you say and "He" exists. Well I have shown a "He" does not exist, now YOU SHOW OTHERWISE!

I have demonstrated the nature of the Biblical Satan, it is up to you to demonstrate that my evidence is somehow inaccurate?

You are becoming like most opponents who can not demonstrate their opinions, they just keep saying, "its in the Text, its in the Text", so PROVE that it means something other than I have Scripturally demonstrated.

Also my King James Standard Version does not even have the WORD "Demon" in it, so you "prove" also that alleged "demons" exist as "beings" or whatever you "claim" they are?

It is TIME for YOU to present your "alleged evidence" in support of your claims, instead of your incessant empty rhetoric.

quote:
Also I remind you of the following you have yet to establish (I wrote): -
We need now to establish precisely "which" portions of the Bible you consider as Divinely Inspired or "mere opinions" before we continue any further?
Composer

changeup 2010 wrote: Psalms is like a hymnal with prayers and such in it, should we start looking at our hymnals in this manner?

Composer responds: You are playing games again, you never answer properly, but avoid the issues and avoid answering my questions with coherent Scriptural verification or evidence.

IS or IS NOT the Bible entirely GOD'S WORD of Instruction to us?

If NOT Entirely, then which portions are merely the Words / Opinions of Men?

I would describe your current methods of responding, as prevarication.

changeup2010 · Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 9:44 pm Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

quote:
Originally posted by composer:
I was under the impression that you got angry with me if I dared to even look like the current topic was varying, now you are angry with me because I did not respond to your change of topic?

I can't win whichever way?

I'm not mad, I just didn't know if you skipped it on accident.

quote
Quote:

You have yet to establish "what" your alleged "Satan / devil demons" etc are, so I will not budge until those initial issues are resolved.
Why do I have to claim if he's one thing or another? He exists that's all I need to know. Just as God exists, we read of Him in the bible, so to do we read of Satan in the bible, so he exists.

quote:
Also I remind you of the following you have yet to establish (I wrote): -

We need now to establish precisely "which" portions of the Bible you consider as Divinely Inspired or "mere opinions" before we continue any further?

Composer

Psalms is like a hymnal with prayers and such in it, should we start looking at our hymnals in this manner?

changeup2010 · Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:51 am Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

quote
Quote:

Composer responds: That is ridiculous. You are playing abstract semantics. I have demonstrated that the WORD Satan is merely a Hebrew WORD / METAPHOR used to describe an ADVERSARY, ANY ADVERSARY or OPPOSER. You claim that the Word Satan implies / confirms a Supernatural "being" of some kind? a "He" as you say and "He" exists. Well I have shown a "He" does not exist, now YOU SHOW OTHERWISE!
Let me give you an example. My name is Scott, it means "tattoo", does that mean that I am a tattoo? NO. Eventhough the word "Satan" in the Old Testament hebrew was "advesary" does not mean that's all it is. Besides, the New Testament was written in Greek and they still use "Satan", so they must be using it as his name. As for proof, as I said earlier if Satan was just a metaphor, than God would not have a conversation with him. Metaphors don't speak. Even if his name does mean advesary, it makes sense, because Satan is God's advesary.

quote
Quote:

I have demonstrated the nature of the Biblical Satan, it is up to you to demonstrate that my evidence is somehow inaccurate?
And I have shown you, through scripture, that Satan is not just a metaphor. As i have covered before, metaphors don't speak to God.

quote
Quote:

You are becoming like most opponents who can not demonstrate their opinions, they just keep saying, "its in the Text, its in the Text", so PROVE that it means something other than I have Scripturally demonstrated.
You must not be reading my posts correctly, because I have shown you scriptural evidence for every point. On your rebuttals to that point I don't use scripture, because it has already been said. I don't want to be repetative. So, you can say whatever you want about evidence, but it has been shown to you, you just need to read carefully.

quote
Quote:

Also my King James Standard Version does not even have the WORD "Demon" in it, so you "prove" also that alleged "demons" exist as "beings" or whatever you "claim" they are?
Now you are playing games. If you look up "demon" in Vines or Easton's you will see that there are several instances where the word "devil(s)" is to be used as "demon". Note that they do not say that the word Satan should be used as "demon". In any case you bait and switched on this question. You ask about demons and then you say there are no such things. I never talked about demons merely Satan and his angels.

quote
Quote:

It is TIME for YOU to present your "alleged evidence" in support of your claims, instead of your incessant empty rhetoric.
What sort of evidence do you want? I have given you plenty, but obviously its not enough. Tell me what exactly you want.

I'll get to the rest later.

[This message has been edited by changeup2010 (edited 01-28-2003).]

composer · Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:32 pm Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

changeup2010 wrote:
quote:

Composer responds: That is ridiculous. You are playing abstract semantics. I have demonstrated that the WORD Satan is merely a Hebrew WORD / METAPHOR used to describe an ADVERSARY, ANY ADVERSARY or OPPOSER. You claim that the Word Satan implies / confirms a Supernatural "being" of some kind? a "He" as you say and "He" exists. Well I have shown a "He" does not exist, now YOU SHOW OTHERWISE!

Let me give you an example. My name is Scott, it means "tattoo", does that mean that I am a tattoo? NO. Even though the word "Satan" in the Old Testament Hebrew was "adversary" does not mean that's all it is. Besides, the New Testament was written in Greek and they still use "Satan", so they must be using it as his name. As for proof, as I said earlier if Satan was just a metaphor, than God would not have a conversation with him. Metaphors don't speak. Even if his name does mean adversary, it makes sense, because Satan is God's adversary.

Composer responds: I have proven that evil can not stand in God's Presence. You "claim" that many Scriptures are invalid and just the "opinions" of men. That being the case, then what makes you certain that the Scriptures you wish to use are not just also the "words / opinions" of the men that wrote it. Were they in heaven when these alleged discussions Re" Job took place?

Obviously NOT. So it must just be "their opinion" according to you?

Also you have not demonstrated that the ADVERSARY of God in JOB is an "evil being or enemy of GOD"?

- - - -

quote:
I have demonstrated the nature of the Biblical Satan, it is up to you to demonstrate that my evidence is somehow inaccurate?
And I have shown you, through scripture, that Satan is not just a metaphor. As i have covered before, metaphors don't speak to God.

Composer responds: See above!
- - - -

quote:
You are becoming like most opponents who can not demonstrate their opinions, they just keep saying, "its in the Text, its in the Text", so PROVE that it means something other than I have Scripturally demonstrated.
You must not be reading my posts correctly, because I have shown you scriptural evidence for every point. On your rebuttals to that point I don't use scripture, because it has already been said. I don't want to be repetative. So, you can say whatever you want about evidence, but it has been shown to you, you just need to read carefully.

Composer responds: Oh I read carefully alright and my opinion stands.
- - - -

quote:
Also my King James Standard Version does not even have the WORD "Demon" in it, so you "prove" also that alleged "demons" exist as "beings" or whatever you "claim" they are?

changeup2010 wrote: Now you are playing games. If you look up "demon" in Vines or Easton's you will see that there are several instances where the word "devil(s)" is to be used as "demon". Note that they do not say that the word Satan should be used as "demon". In any case you bait and switched on this question. You ask about demons and then you say there are no such things. I never talked about demons merely Satan and his angels.

Composer responds: But you claim that your alleged Satan is NOT a "fallen heavenly angel", so what is it that other angels would allegedly be willing to follow. It must be "supernatural" like them, so what do you say it is? (Scriptures please?)

This issue is a nonsense also, for I am expected to ask "hypothetical questions" regarding "non existent" devils / beings etc.

e.g. When did your alleged fallen angels allegedly become demons / devils?

Why did only "some" of them allegedly become devils / demons? etc. etc.

YOU say they exist and yet offer absolutely no proof ?

- - - -

quote:
It is TIME for YOU to present your "alleged evidence" in support of your claims, instead of your incessant empty rhetoric.
changeup2010 wrote: What sort of evidence do you want? I have given you plenty, but obviously its not enough. Tell me what exactly you want.

Composer responds: I can not state precisely "all" of what I want as I can not even as yet determine what your evidence is to support your current claims.

Start by telling me "what" your alleged Satan is, and your Scriptural evidence?

Start by telling me PRECISELY "which" portions of the Bible are just mere opinions of Men, and which are GOD'S WORDS. (i.e. you said that the Psalms are just David's Opinions?)

e.g. Is Revelation DIVINE and the WORD of GOD or just John's "opinion" and so on, with each Book of the Bible?

changeup2010 wrote: I'll get to the rest later.

Composer responds: Great!

Nobby · Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:53 pm Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

Aren't you two getting dizzy by now.
Sounds like a broken record!
I'm getting sleepy......yawn! zzzzzzzz..... #Sleep

.....yawn gonna get me some coffee!

------------------
Nobby

Jesus wept!

composer · Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:47 am Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

Yes I agree with you Nobby, trying to get a straight answer is virtually impossible?

I am very patient, one time he will slip up and actually answer and I will be ready?

Lets's hope it is sooner rather than later that he actually coherently answers my repeated questions?

composer · Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:37 am Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

Are U still busy changeup2010?

Please advise approx. when U might actually answer my questions?

Thanks

[This message has been edited by composer (edited 02-01-2003).]

composer · Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2003 4:20 pm Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

See what happens when I ask for straight answers, those that can not give them, run away.

QED

Composer

changeup2010 · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 10:17 am Post subject:

I did not run away, I have been in the process of moving and did not have access to the internet for some time. Sorry bout that. I forgot to post about my moving.

You need to get off your high horse.

composer · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 4:15 pm Post subject: Ongoing Discussion

To changeup2010,

Perhaps in future if you decide to suddenly terminate the Discussion for "whatever reason" you will have the decency and courtesy to inform me either at this Forum or at composer@tpg.com.au.

It is most difficult to pick up the train of discussion when large amounts of time elapse, however unless you have a particular point to re-commence perhaps we could continue and restart with the following: -

I have yet to discover precisely "what" you claim your alleged "Satan / devil" etc. to be, and your alleged evidence to support your claims?

Composer
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Composer