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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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(all quotes from STABYC)
| Quote: | | Is that the only sin you consider bad enough to keep someone out of your church? If so, then why are we discussing this in this particular forum subject? |
That was the sin you were talking about.
| Quote: | | So you are just going to stop people at the door of your church and say "Hey bud, you divorced? No? Come on in. Hello, you divorced? Yes? Sorry, can't come in." |
Of course not.
| Quote: | | What do you mean how else? By being turned away from the church? That should turn them from their sinful ways? |
1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
| Quote: | | So you are saying we are not supposed to learn anything in church? |
I am saying that learning is not the "purpose" of church. As i said in my previous post learning is an effect of church, but not its purpose.
| Quote: | | I don't believe this means you can't try to help them or talk to them or try to invite them to church to "learn" about Jesus, and why they are living wrong, and how they can change. |
Why does it have to be in church that you talk to them? Jesus did not take sinners into the synagogues, He went out to where they were at.
| Quote: | | I don't ever want to be accused of turning my back on someone that could have become a believer, and would not want to be part of a church that would do that either. |
I'm glad that you don't turn your back on people. But, i am not so happy that you try to bring known unrepentant sin into the body of Christ.
I also don't turn my back on anyone. I am out ministering to sinners where they are at, and I spend more time doing that than i do at church. |
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STABYC
Little Guppy
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 36
Location: KNOXVILLE, TN
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| larryjf wrote: |
That was the sin you were talking about. |
I was responding to "your" post. 
| larryjf wrote: | | I am saying that learning is not the "purpose" of church. As i said in my previous post learning is an effect of church, but not its purpose. |
I went back and read your original post that I replied to and I guess you could say that that is what you said. But it still sounds like you were saying that "Church is not for "learning to repent" or for learning anything". I agree that the purpose of church is for worship. But unfortunately in this world we don't have very many choices other than church for learning.
| larryjf wrote: | | Why does it have to be in church that you talk to them? Jesus did not take sinners into the synagogues, He went out to where they were at. |
It does not. But I can reach many more people by inviting them to church than by approaching them one on one, especially since I do not claim to know much and since I am still learning, I would not deem it upon myself to try to explain too much to an unrepentant sinner. It would be much wiser for me to invite them to a place where there are more knowledgeable people than me, and the logical place for that would be church. One other point is that unbelievers or unrepentant sinners most of the time get mad or embarrassed if you talk to them too much about the subject. There is definately a way to go about it so as to not push them farther away. I don't seem to be very good at that skill, as a lot of people probably aren't. Therefore, wouldn't it be better to lead them to someone who is? Like to a minister or teacher, or even invite them to church?
| larryjf wrote: | | But, i am not so happy that you try to bring known unrepentant sin into the body of Christ. |
Did I say that? I don't think so. I believe I said that there is always hope and to be sure they are what you think they are before you deny them entry into church. I have actually never brought a "known" unrepentant sinner to church.
| larryjf wrote: | | If they do not justify themselves and say that they are repentant, you should take them at their word - unless their fruit proves otherwise. |
I am curious, do you investigate every member of your church to make sure that they are repentant of their sins and do not commit them repeatedly? Isn't that what you mean by "unless their fruit proves otherwise", committing the same sins again and again? Would you throw someone out of your church if they have told a lie once a week for ten years even though they repent each week while attending your church? Wouldn't that mean that their "fruit was proving otherwise"? I know that I try to repent everyday since I sin everyday. But I know that I commit some of the same sins multiple times. Does that make me unacceptable in your church?
| larryjf wrote: | | I also don't turn my back on anyone. I am out ministering to sinners where they are at, and I spend more time doing that than i do at church. |
Where are all the sinners at?  Sorry, just joking. I am thankful that you have the skills and knowledge to do this. The points that I listed above make it very difficult for me, plus I have a job and take care of a house and children. Not that I don't try, I do. Every chance I get I do what I can. I am just not knowledgable enough or have the right skills. But I am working on it, that is why I am here!  I do like to invite people to church as much as possible and like I said above, to my knowledge none of them are "unrepentant sinners". But if they are, I hope that by coming to church that someday they will not be.
Just trying to love my neighor as Jesus loves me and to get a better understanding of the Word! |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Stabyc,
stabyc said:
| Quote: | | was responding to "your" post. |
Actually, i was responding to summertime's post in regards to marriage...
summertime said:
| Quote: | I mean, those who have divorced and remarried are welcomed, aren't they?
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stabyc said:
| Quote: | | But unfortunately in this world we don't have very many choices other than church for learning. |
That's a shame that you feel that way. After all, church learning usually comes from a 1-directional method (pastor to congregation). I actually feel that you can learn much more in a bible study group or something like that. Or even just going out and talking to people. That way you are actually getting responses and not just "dictating" what is to be learned. Also, when there are responses allowed and differences expressed, everyone can come away with learning something.
stabyc said:
| Quote: | | But I can reach many more people by inviting them to church than by approaching them one on one, especially since I do not claim to know much and since I am still learning, I would not deem it upon myself to try to explain too much to an unrepentant sinner. It would be much wiser for me to invite them to a place where there are more knowledgeable people than me, and the logical place for that would be church. |
I understand where you are coming from, but church normally does not encourage open debate and discussion about things, so i wonder how much an unbeleiver would learn - it's really meant for beleivers.
stabyc said:
| Quote: | | One other point is that unbelievers or unrepentant sinners most of the time get mad or embarrassed if you talk to them too much about the subject. There is definately a way to go about it so as to not push them farther away. |
i don't know too many unbelievers that would go to church. Most feel quite uncomfortable with the idea. Sometimes inviting people to church can push them away.
i think one of the best ways to speak to someone is to meet them where they are at. Then let the conversation come naturally into a spiritual direction, then speak of God's things.
If we are so worried about pushing people away that we don't work to pull people in, the effect is the same.
stabyc said:
| Quote: | | Therefore, wouldn't it be better to lead them to someone who is? Like to a minister or teacher, or even invite them to church? |
I think it would be great to get them together with someone you felt could answer questions and talk about things more, but there really isn't an open discussion going on during church services.
stabyc said:
| Quote: | | Did I say that? I don't think so. I believe I said that there is always hope and to be sure they are what you think they are before you deny them entry into church. I have actually never brought a "known" unrepentant sinner to church. |
That's what my whole point was, that it is wrong to knowingly bring an unrepetent sinner into the body of Chirst.
Maybe we are on the same page after all 
I don't think at all that the church should deny people because they "think" they have unrepentent sin, they most know it for a fact.
There is another issue which is, maybe they could be allowed into the church services, but not allowed to become official "members" of the church??
stabyc said:
| Quote: | | I am curious, do you investigate every member of your church to make sure that they are repentant of their sins and do not commit them repeatedly? Isn't that what you mean by "unless their fruit proves otherwise", committing the same sins again and again? Would you throw someone out of your church if they have told a lie once a week for ten years even though they repent each week while attending your church? Wouldn't that mean that their "fruit was proving otherwise"? I know that I try to repent everyday since I sin everyday. But I know that I commit some of the same sins multiple times. Does that make me unacceptable in your church? |
Of course we don't "investigate people". Let me give you an example that happened...
A woman was having an affair and after a while decided to divorce her husband. Now she was leaving him with all the children (4) and was going to live with this other man. They went to church counseling and she refused to even aknowledge that anything she did was wrong.
In this situation there is valid ground for excommunicating her.
If you commit the same sin every week you haven't really repented, have you? Repentence unto life is a saving grace whereby a sinner out of a true sense of his sin, and aprehension of the mercy of God in Christ, does with grief and hatred of his sin turn from it unto God, with full purpose of and endeavor after new obedience.
So if you haven't turned from it to God there is a problem.
But, excommunication is the last step. If you would be willing to undergo counseling, that would be the best step in this situation.
Each situation is different.
stabyc said:
| Quote: | | Where are all the sinners at? Sorry, just joking. |
stabyc said:
| Quote: | | I am thankful that you have the skills and knowledge to do this. |
I actually don't have the skills for it. But God does work through me to get His message and love out there. If we won't spread His message and love, who will?? To only rely on the "church" would be to neglect our responsibility. In the matter of God's kingdom, every believer is called on to be a priest to the world.
stabyc said:
| Quote: | | The points that I listed above make it very difficult for me, plus I have a job and take care of a house and children. Not that I don't try, I do. Every chance I get I do what I can. I am just not knowledgable enough or have the right skills. |
I understand, trust me.
I am going to school full time, working full time, in training for deacon, involved with a homless ministry, nursing home ministry, and youth ministry. Besides that, i am married with 2 little children (1.5 and 4), and a 21 year old daughter with her husband living in our basement.
The important thing is that you try. As long as you don't give up and relegate the whole responsibility to the "church", God will work through you.
You don't have to be knowledgeable of skillfull, if you are then you might get the glory and not God! And we all know who would be behind that 
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Cor 2:1-5 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 7:18 pm Post subject: To say that ... |
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To say that ... God made gay people, is like saying God made murderers, rapists, liars, cheats and thieves.
This kind of personality trait / disorder exists, and prevails in many cultures. That does not mean that God made them.
Most cultures find, capture and jail crimenals. In some countries it is common to put to death those people who have betrayed human decency
and national law, have planned and carried out acts of murder.
So, we can't say that God made them, but they do in fact exist.
The old testament bible places a specific sentance for people who have been found guilty of sinful and crimenal behavior. That law was written for the nation of Israel to justify punishing sinners and crimenals within their borders and that included non-jews living and carrying out the acts in Israel, but not necessarily against only Israelites.
Is a gay person a crimenal? Is homosexual acts sin? The bible says that it is at least sin, just like it says that crime is crime and punishment is justified.
We all must learn. When we are in the right and when we are in the wrong. It is unfair and un-godly to show favoritism so, if a sinner sins, the penalty is carried out even if the sinner is me, you, my son, your daughter or the President of the U.S.
Sin is sin and worthy to be judged.
Again, did God make gays? No
God made man then sin and human nature bred the impurities into our being. To let sin increase in strength is like letting an infection grow while the penicillin lays on the counter un-used.
God did not make sin, God did not make sinners, but God helps us identify sin and offers a proper penalty for each, according to what it merits.
When we are sick or dieing of an illness, we ask God to heal it, cleanse us and make us whole. Like sickness, sin can be identified and treated so that it does not prevail, and overwhelm us.
When we have tried every earthly thing to heal our self, we ask God to do what we have tried and failed to do, heal us and others. We believe that along with inviting God to answer our prayer, we are also obligating our self to a life of service to Him and His people.
The truth is that God is pleased by our asking Him for help. He is overjoyed at our display of faith in Him and He loves to answer our prayers! No matter how big or small the request seems to be.
Some times, we make healing and cleansing a lot more painful than it has to be. Especially when we have a great physician in Jesus (( in His presence, all sickness, illness, disease and sin becomes non-existent )), He truly is the one all together lovely, the rock of ages, the beginning and the end.
Truly trust into His hands " any thing," including your soul, and you will not be disappointed!
thunder |
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STABYC
Little Guppy
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 36
Location: KNOXVILLE, TN
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Larryjf, I am sorry I have been gone this weekend and have not been able to get to the computer to post a reply. You have given me a lot to think about and helped me more than you know. I think that we are more or less on the same page.  
| larryjf wrote: | | I don't think at all that the church should deny people because they "think" they have unrepentent sin, they most know it for a fact. |
In the beginning, I think that that was the only point I was trying to make.
| larryjf wrote: | | There is another issue which is, maybe they could be allowed into the church services, but not allowed to become official "members" of the church?? |
That is a good point. Something else to consider. I am going to have to study and pray a lot on this (and much more!). But sometimes I feel like I almost have to just let go of all I "think" I know because it turns out to be not quite like I had believed.
Do any of you (besides me) have the experience of what I think is right or what I want to be right, just isn't the way it is? And suddenly you have to change the way you look at things? Or am I just a basket case?   |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| STABYC wrote: | | Do any of you (besides me) have the experience of what I think is right or what I want to be right, just isn't the way it is? And suddenly you have to change the way you look at things? Or am I just a basket case? |
You should take heart that you are not alone in this!
As a people we view right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust, based on our standards. Unfortunately for our ego's, God views them based on HIS standards, and the two rarely meet. His is the perfect standard and as such it is difficult for us to comprehend an accept sometimes.
The good news is; God can give us a new point of view. As the worship song says: Take my mind, transform it. Take my heart and form it. Take my will, conform it. To Yours, to Yours, oh Lord. |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:21 am Post subject: |
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stabyc,
stabyc said:
| Quote: | | Do any of you (besides me) have the experience of what I think is right or what I want to be right, just isn't the way it is? And suddenly you have to change the way you look at things? Or am I just a basket case? |
All the time. When we start clinging to what we think we know instead of being soft to the Master's hand, that's when we have a problem.
I tend to be very dogmatic about some things that i believe, but some of my dogmatic stances have shifted over the years. The important thing is to pray and read the scriptures with the intent of being changed and molded by God's hand, not to simply justify what we already think we know.
I have also been given alot to think, and especially to pray about. God willing, we will all come away learning something. We may learn something about God, ourselves, others, etc. etc...
It was great talking with you. |
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summertime
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 381
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:37 am Post subject: Re: To say that ... |
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| thunder wrote: | To say that ... God made gay people, is like saying God made murderers, rapists, liars, cheats and thieves.
This kind of personality trait / disorder exists, and prevails in many cultures. That does not mean that God made them.
Most cultures find, capture and jail crimenals. In some countries it is common to put to death those people who have betrayed human decency
and national law, have planned and carried out acts of murder.
So, we can't say that God made them, but they do in fact exist.
The old testament bible places a specific sentance for people who have been found guilty of sinful and crimenal behavior. That law was written for the nation of Israel to justify punishing sinners and crimenals within their borders and that included non-jews living and carrying out the acts in Israel, but not necessarily against only Israelites.
Is a gay person a crimenal? Is homosexual acts sin? The bible says that it is at least sin, just like it says that crime is crime and punishment is justified.
We all must learn. When we are in the right and when we are in the wrong. It is unfair and un-godly to show favoritism so, if a sinner sins, the penalty is carried out even if the sinner is me, you, my son, your daughter or the President of the U.S.
Sin is sin and worthy to be judged.
Again, did God make gays? No
God made man then sin and human nature bred the impurities into our being. To let sin increase in strength is like letting an infection grow while the penicillin lays on the counter un-used.
God did not make sin, God did not make sinners, but God helps us identify sin and offers a proper penalty for each, according to what it merits.
When we are sick or dieing of an illness, we ask God to heal it, cleanse us and make us whole. Like sickness, sin can be identified and treated so that it does not prevail, and overwhelm us.
When we have tried every earthly thing to heal our self, we ask God to do what we have tried and failed to do, heal us and others. We believe that along with inviting God to answer our prayer, we are also obligating our self to a life of service to Him and His people.
The truth is that God is pleased by our asking Him for help. He is overjoyed at our display of faith in Him and He loves to answer our prayers! No matter how big or small the request seems to be.
Some times, we make healing and cleansing a lot more painful than it has to be. Especially when we have a great physician in Jesus (( in His presence, all sickness, illness, disease and sin becomes non-existent )), He truly is the one all together lovely, the rock of ages, the beginning and the end.
Truly trust into His hands " any thing," including your soul, and you will not be disappointed!
thunder |
Your opinion is appreciated! |
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summertime
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 381
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:42 am Post subject: Re: To say that ... |
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| thunder wrote: | | To say that ... God made gay people, is like saying God made murderers, rapists, liars, cheats and thieves. |
To say that gay people are equivalent to murderers, rapists, liars, cheats, and thieves, is to say that those who encompass the characteristics of the fruits of the Spirit are equal to those who do not, which all of these do not in and of their individual titles (ie. murderers, rapists, liars, cheats, and thieves). Consider the heart motives and intentions of all of these as compared to someone who is gay. Someone who murders may have the ability to love, but by being a murderer, they kill other human images of God. A rapist may have the ability to love, but by being a rapist, they impose their power and selfishness onto another human image of God sexually without any concern for the other person's feelings about what is about to happen. A liar can love as well, but by being a liar, they intentionally deceive others for selfish reasons. The same can be said about a cheat and a thief. A gay person can also love, but by being what their title implies (gay), they do nothing more than love another human image of God. Dig deeper, people! Yes, this is my humble opinion. Much like all of us here. |
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