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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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 Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Fake do you see Jesus as an Idol?
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Christina |
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Winston
Big Goldfish
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: A true test ... |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | thunder wrote: | | A true test ... to know where you are with God, is to answer the following question correctly. |
Romans 6:16.....OBEDIENCE, is the true test of any follower of God
| Quote: | | Jesus said," without me, you can do nothing." |
Every person who 'tries' to worship God on Sunday...should ask themselves this very question.
Since Jesus never told anyone to observe that day....he asks: "Why do you transgress the commandment of God by your traditions" ? (Matthew 15:3).
And then he says: BUT IN VAIN...do they worship me...teaching for doctrine,teaching for doctrine the commandments of men", (Matthew 15:9). |
Good Post, Silver Surfer.
sorry for any interruption, Christina. |
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Bridget
Rattlesnake
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 443
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Yes Roman, I agree. When you read the Bible as it is written it's better then any novel you find in any bookstore. The whole picture of God's dealing with His people comes alive. God's people at first were the Israelites, and today it is Christians? If Christians continue on the path they are on, I wonder if some day God will punish for their unbelief. It's scars me and it's what keeps me coming back. I have children and grandchildren thatwill keep this line going on and I don't want them punished for what they have not done.
I hope to be taking a course from the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews.
There is also a documentary that comes on around this time of year on PBS called Heritage: Civilization and the Jews. This is like 9 hours long and it took me many sittings to watch it over 2 or three years. It's also on line. This covers the whole Bible, from Abraham to Jesus to Muslims to Hitler to present. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3401
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Does being a Jew or an Israelite have anything to do with bloodlines? Jesus made no such distinction, but rather gave the criteria for being a member of (((((spiritual))))) Israel.
Mark 3:31: There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
32: And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33: And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34: And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35: For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
(((((God)))))) is his father (intentionally not mentioned here) and everyone who does the will of his father, is Jesus' kinsmen. Therefore, natural born Jews or Gentiles who do not do the will of God are not spiritual Israelites and natural born Jews or Gentiles who do, are spiritual Israelites.
Jesus' natural born Jewish mother and brother were ((((not)))) given any special privileges over anyone else.
Paul confirms this;
Romans 2:28: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Circumcision of the heart and spirit is what makes a Jew in ((((God's)))) eyes.
The prophecies of the OT have to be read in the context of being able to distinguish between the Lord speaking of (((natural))) Israel (born in the flesh to do with bloodlines and geneologies) or (((spiritual))) Israel which has nothing to do with fleshly bloodlines. New Jerusalem is not natural Jerusalem. Many natural Israelites and Jews do not understand this because it was also prophesied that they would be blinded to this truth. To look to natural Jews for enlightenment is to fulfill Jesus' words in Matt 15: 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: | Paul confirms this;
Romans 2:28: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Circumcision of the heart and spirit is what makes a Jew in ((((God's)))) eyes. |
This idea should be taken a bit further....as in the New Covenant:
Hebrews 8:8 "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a [new covenant] with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
8:10 "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people"
The New Covenant, is with the house of 'spiritual' Israel (Christians), right ?
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| christina wrote: | | Fake do you see Jesus as an Idol? |
Not as an Idol, more of an icon.
Someone who was more or less fabricated to be what some people were in need of, a spiritual leader that were the embodiment of what the religious needed to keep prospering and revitalize the religion from the threats of other religions.
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Not as an Idol, more of an icon.
Someone who was more or less fabricated to be what some people were in need of, a spiritual leader that were the embodiment of what the religious needed to keep prospering and revitalize the religion from the threats of other religions.
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If that were the case then that would make him an Idol. Someone we give glory to instead of God like in the book of Daniel they worshiped idols that represented God. He was very angry with them!
Do you think that is the same thing we do with Jesus?
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Christina |
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Bridget
Rattlesnake
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 443
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Josephus was the Jewish historian who wrote about Jesus. There are numerous other writings that refer to Jesus by those who loved Him and by those who hated Him. There is enough evidence to prove that indeed Jesus Christ lived. He was a real person who lived and breathed and probably did exactly what the gospels said He did. Now if you want to get into what todays so called followers of Jesus believe, it isn't even close to what Jesus taught in the first century as He walked the places in Israel He knew and loved and taught the people. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Scott Oser wrote: | Josephus and Jesus
The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, writing during the second half of the first century CE, produced two major works: History of the Jewish War and Antiquities of the Jews. Two apparent references to Jesus occur in the second of these works. The longer, and more famous passage, occurs in Book 18 of Antiquities and reads as follows (taken from the standard accepted Greek text of Antiquities 18:63-64 by L. H. Feldman in the Loeb Classical Library):
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and as a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvellous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
This passage is called the Testimonium Flavianum, and is sometimes cited by propagandists as independent confirmation of Jesus' existence and resurrection. However, there is excellent reason to suppose that this passage was not written in its present form by Josephus, but was either inserted or amended by later Christians:
The early Christian writer Origen claims that Josephus did NOT recognize Jesus as the Messiah, in direct contradiction to the above passage, where Josephus says, "He was the Messiah." Thus, we may conclude that this particular phrase at least was a later insertion. (The version given above was, however, known to Jerome and in the time of Eusebius. Jerome's Latin version, however, renders "He was the Messiah" by "He was believed to be the Christ.") Furthermore, other early Christian writers fail to cite this passage, even though it would have suited their purposes to do so. There is thus firm evidence that this passage was tampered with at some point, even if parts of it do date back to Josephus.
The passage is highly pro-Christian. It is hard to imagine that Josephus, a Pharisaic Jew, would write such a laudatory passage about a man supposedly killed for blasphemy. Indeed, the passage seems to make Josephus himself out to be a Christian, which was certainly not the case.
Many Biblical scholars reject the entire Testimonium Flavianum as a later Christian insertion. However, some maintain that Josephus's work originally did refer to Jesus, but that Christian copyists later expanded and made the text more favorable to Jesus. These scholars cite such phrases as "tribe of Christians" and "wise man" as being atypical Christian usages, but plausible if coming from a first century Palestinian Jew. Of course, a suitably clever Christian wishing to "dress up" Josephus would not have much trouble imitating his style.
No adequate means of deciding the issue exists at this time. However, those who argue for Jesus's non-existence note that Josephus spends much more time discussing John the Baptist and various other supposed Messiahs than he does discussing Jesus. However, while there is some reason to believe that this second passage is a fabrication, there is not enough evidence to definitely conclude this.
On the whole, it seems at least plausible that Josephus made some references to Jesus in the original version of Antiquities of the Jews. However, the extent of these references is very uncertain, and clear evidence of textual corruption does exist. While Josephus may be the best non-Christian source on Jesus, that is not saying much. |
Fake
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Good points Fake, although, further study of this passage and the other writings of Josephus has convinced much of scholarship that the reference to Jesus by in the begining of the passage is indeed accepted as genuine.
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and as a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks.
The italics are parts that do not seem to fit the style of Josephus, as well as the last part of the passage which I declined to include here. However, the reference to Jesus is sound academically and accepted by current schlarship as Josephus's.
Some academic camps suggest that the latter half of the passage included some sort of comment regarding the concept that 'it was said that on the third day..." but much of the rest concerning Pilate etc. was also genuine. I however, like many others tend to be conservative and accept only that which is overwhelmingly considered genuine.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:04 am Post subject: All the more ... |
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All the more ... reason to trust Christ and not men.
thunder
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Submit to God in Christ |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: All the more ... |
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| thunder wrote: | All the more ... reason to trust Christ and not men.
thunder |
Satan is constantly endeavoring to attract attention to man in the place of God. He leads the people to look to bishops, to pastors, to professors of theology, as their guides, instead of searching the Scriptures to learn their duty for themselves.
Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the multitudes according to his will.
Thus we see this evidence in the Popes of Rome, who's followers, number in the 100's of millions !
Satan watches to catch away every impression that would make them wise unto salvation, and the time of trouble will find them unready.
When God sends to men warnings so important that they are represented as proclaimed by holy angels flying in the midst of heaven, He requires every person endowed with reasoning powers to heed the message. The fearful judgments denounced against the worship of the beast and his image (Revelation 14:9-11), should lead all to a diligent study of the prophecies to learn what the mark of the beast is, and how they are to avoid receiving it.
But the masses of the people turn away their ears from hearing the truth and are turned unto fables. The apostle Paul declared, looking down to the last days: "The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine." 2 Timothy 4:3. That time has fully come.
The multitudes do not want Bible truth, because it interferes with the desires of the sinful, world-loving heart; and Satan supplies the deceptions which they love.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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James1-26
Bear Cub
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 603
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | revmattchoo.com wrote: |
ok, so we go with what you say, then every person but Jesus should end up in hell if we go with what you say. if the salvation process is for previous sins only: a man goes out and commits adultery with a woman. He stands up and trips on something and somehow manages to fall on a sharp object that instantly kills him. He does not have time to repent of his sin. so does this guy die and go straight to hell? |
For one thing...no one goes to heaven or hell...till after the Day of God's Judgment, til after Jesus Christ comes again, (Revelation 22:11,12).
2nd fact: Adam and Eve was the first lesson ever taught on what happens to those who sins willfully.
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..", (Hosea 4:6).
The study of the 1st and 2nd testaments of scripture...together, shows how God deals with sin. |
THIS BOY IS COPYING ME!!!!
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"Life is tough. Life is tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
"Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me:..." --the LORD |
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James1-26
Bear Cub
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 603
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Let me re-phrase, please ... |
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| thunder wrote: | Allow me to re-phrase, please ... let us repent, over and over again.
Some times my slight of tongue attempt at humor fails to hit the note intended and there I am, floating downstream on a chip of ice with the bright son warming the water ... to my surprize ... or is it?
A repentant life is one wrought with repentance." Repent, or you shall all likewise perish."
I very much enjoy the civil quarrel and desire to hear more of the repentance of which you speak.
Would it not be interesting if we could give ourself to faithfull and effective argueing scriptural text so that we could live off the phat of the word of God.
I must say that an eternal bible study sounds very appeling at this very moment. Ah ... five star dining at the seven star feast of the lamb.
Love
thunder |
What kind of drugs are you on now??? How do you spell phat...p h a t? What is that, tahp spelled backwards? Some new fangled English? Humor has to have an element of truth to be funny. That's why you're not funny. "I must say...eternal bible study...." You just couldn't stop yourself or what?
James 1:26 <<< read this.
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"Life is tough. Life is tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
"Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me:..." --the LORD |
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Winston
Big Goldfish
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I thought it was humorous, although I don't understand the "....phat of the word of God..." bit. To me it spells out Pretty. Hot. And. Tempting. of the W.O.G. if you reverse the acronyms. |
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