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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:29 am Post subject: Thanks ... |
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Thanks ... for the down to earth clarification of my post, Van and Roman.
I understand that God will judge and punish those whom He determines are in deviation to His will, and that hell is part of that punishment for them.
I know that He will...
I have trouble understanding why anyone would think that God forces predestined people into hell.
I have been hardened by events in my life and come to God in submission.
Was I predestined to do that? I think not.
I believe that I was hardened, realized that I had a choice and chose to invite God to soften my heart.
He did and does.
If Pharoh wanted to be softened likewise........
thunder
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5303
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | Nobby, I do not understand your question. You know who started this thread you can look at the OP. So what was your purpose? |
Sure I knew you started the thead, I also Knew that you knew that it was a touchy subject, Since it's been hashed out several times on this board, & always ends in a big arguement.
What triggered my question, you said goodby! Sounded like you were bowing out of the thread that you started.
I probably shouldn't have said anything. Sometimes my thoughts of the moment, bounce onto the thread. (I don't like it when I do That)
anyway everythings fine on this end. Hope you weren't effended?
God Bless,
Nobby
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Last edited by Nobby on Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I have trouble understanding why anyone would think that God forces predestined people into hell.
I have been hardened by events in my life and come to God in submission.
Was I predestined to do that? I think not.
I believe that I was hardened, realized that I had a choice and chose to invite God to soften my heart. |
God purifies us with fire like you have to do to gold.
James1-12
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
1 Corinthians 13
his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
Zechariah 13:9
This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "
Revelation 2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
| Quote: | | I have trouble understanding why anyone would think that God forces predestined people into hell. |
God wants to know even when facing Hell itself "will we remain faithful to HIM!"
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Christina |
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Star
King of the Jungle
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1765
Location: Just moved to south Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Great post Christina!  Ever notice that Hell is NAKED before Him? That its a HOUSE that the TONGUE (Both mentioned in Jesus' parable and in James) needed to COOL OFF and its the GATES of it that seek to prevail?
Hell is naked before Him how much more so the HEARTS of men. Where speaketh that TONGUE?  and from WHERE did the TONGUE which is a small rudder set its course from?
If we make our bed in hell (snared by the words of our mouths) He is there to LOOSE us with the KEYS He already gave us in obedience to Him.
Condemn not and thou shalt not be condemned BY THE WORDS OF OUR MOUTH we will be aquitted or condemned therefore AGREE WITH OUR ADVERSARY.
I just love His words
In Him
Star |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:48 pm Post subject: So, both Christina and Star... |
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So, both Christina and Star... believe that God creates some people who will without doubt go to hell and others who will certainly go to heaven, just because God decided at their creation that they were going to.
Are there any people, according to your belief, who go through life and whom God has not already predisposed them en-route to heaven or hell?
I suppose that would explain that guy I met in jail who had no interest in re-inventing himself and becoming a good husband, father, trusting employee, non-crimenal businessman and attending a local christian church where he would learn of Christ, submit to His authority over every aspect of his life and begin again.
His instincts told him he was en-route to hell and that he was going for the whole enchilada, while in or out of jail, because someone told him that it is God who predestines certain people to go to hell no matter how broken their heart is and how contrite they live.
So, some people are condemned from birth and will go to one or the other, no matter how many hail mary's they say, rosery beads they pray over and financial offerings they give to the local church, who gladly takes their money knowing the person's soul is doomed to a devils hell or to heaven, and they won't need money in either.
I thought that I saw an inkling of light in the," you have to face hell and still choose Christ," statement, as though we will be tested for our true intents by seeing hell coming and throwing any fear and anxiousness to the wind and choose Christ, even if we end up in hell any way.
Perhaps a glimmer.............
thunder
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Star
King of the Jungle
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1765
Location: Just moved to south Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Thunder,
You said,
So, both Christina and Star... believe that God creates some people who will without doubt go to hell and others who will certainly go to heaven, just because God decided at their creation that they were going to.
Star replies,
I cant speak for Christina, but for myself. You completely misunderstood me Thunder (its ok) I see hell differently from most people. Thats what I was "hinting" at in my post. Its way too complicated to come into this discussion from where your standing and how your veiwing my perspective.
I heard Christina differently then you heard her and I could be the one mistaken but I do not agree with how you perceived me saying it.
So No I do not believe your above assertion at all.
In Him
Star |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Thunder please do not assume anything about me or my beliefs because it is obvious you are talking about something you know nothing about.
| Quote: | believe that God creates some people who will without doubt go to hell and others who will certainly go to heaven, just because God decided at their creation that they were going to.
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What i said was
"God purifies us with fire like you have to do to gold" and "God wants to know even when facing Hell itself "will we remain faithful to HIM!"
the rest was from scriptures.
Again thunder you have added to the story to try and make a point!
Your friend in Jail that you were talking about.
| Quote: | I suppose that would explain that guy I met in jail who had no interest in re-inventing himself and becoming a good husband, father, trusting employee, non-crimenal businessman and attending a local christian church where he would learn of Christ, submit to His authority over every aspect of his life and begin again.
His instincts told him he was en-route to hell and that he was going for the whole enchilada, while in or out of jail, because someone told him that it is God who predestines certain people to go to hell no matter how broken their heart is and how contrite they live.
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Is a perfect example of someone who is failing his test, and that would mean that he, not God has decided where he is going.
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Christina |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:16 am Post subject: Well I feel better now ... |
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Well I feel better now ... in my future posts I will refuse to place a name beside them, as a response directed to them, so that I don't make a mistake choosing whom said what and how it was perceived to mean.
The arguement of Calvinism hints that God chooses and that man just gets the glory or the burning.
My assertion hints that for an individual destined, predestined, or what ever all of the other hidden forces in the universe happen to attach to the guy in jail, his route is set, according to Calvin, for doomsday and re-inventing himself will only provide him a pure earthly life while his soul, does Calvin believe in the human soul? I don't know, but if he does, will end up right where Calvin says it will?
Unless of course Calvin was a psychoanalytical bible thumper and was applying his version of how he thought the mind of man, albeit, the mind of God and Christ really works, and the test is little more than a psyche / spirit exam and as people pass / fail, God re-arranges their next test after next test ... and so on until ... well ... until the end and each pass or fail the final psychological / spiritual assessment then go to the corner chosen before all of the tests were applied by God?
In that train of thought, the tests are only entertainment for God? each of our actual outcome was already scheduled?
I prefer the version where God made man in His own image and sends angels to help when we seek help in order to help us get thru worldly trials and temptations successfully and find Him waiting for us in the garden.
I suppose that scripture can be twisted to read and mean just about every way imaginable, only one of which is accurate, the rest being fodder tainted with smoke.
The former treatise was pointed at no one and not intended to represent any actual person or event.
Whew ... that's like a walk thru central park at 5:18AM.
thunder
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Thunder, folks pushing a false doctrine seldom come right out and clearly state what they believe, but hide it with dodges like "it way to complicated to go into" and "you have no idea what I believe" and on and on. Instead of stating clearly what they believe, they point out that whatever others believe is wrong.
Both Christina and Star appear to be Universalists, believing stuff like the folks that go to hell pop back up out of the lake of fire, purified and join the believers who made the choice in this life, in heaven.
And yes, dealing with those that espouse false doctines is like walking in central park, you can expect frequent muggings. |
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Star
King of the Jungle
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1765
Location: Just moved to south Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:41 am Post subject: |
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Yep Thunder,
Ya have to beware of me because I dont prefer to cram my beliefs down anyones throat, you know... Love is not rude and I hate being forcefed myself.
I could care less about head knowledge in those they think know anything at all, thats not where its at for me. Love surpasses it and is the Spirit that speaks volumes to me when it comes to seeing who is in the Lord (no rather) has the Lord in them.
 Beware  Oh Van, your so not worth my time for another locked thread of empty arguments.
In Him
Starlaa |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Thunder, it didn't take long did it. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3403
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Are you trying to cause trouble, Van. What I see is you making yourself look bad. 
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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Once again a lively discussion has begun to turn ugly. No more.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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