The Promises of Perfection: Are they for real?

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

First of all, telling a Street preacher you believe in Jesus and having him or anyone tell you you are then 'born again' is false. You aren't born again. When that happens to you you will know it, you will know joy as you have never known it before and you will know a deep down peace as you have never known it before. All God asks of you is to try. That's all anyone can do. Remember God looks at your heart and if your heart is sincere He knows that, so stop beating yourself up and start loving God and the fact that He sent His only Son so that you can be forgiven. Start there, know what it took Jesus to give His life and suffer as He did for you and for me and for all of us who believe. That's love my friend and when someone loves you that much, it becomes easier and easier to live as He wants you to. If we were perfect, it would not have been necessary for Jesus to sacrifice Himself now would it. None of us are perfect. We have a set of guidelines to follow so we can try. Loving one another would be nice, but it's not happening. Look around you. Think about what Jesus has said. If all people would listen to Him there would be no war and no hate. There is though.
Years ago I listened to people on radio tell of how they were born again. I wanted that peace and that joy so much. I'd get on my knees and beg and plead and sob and when that didn't work I laid on the floor and begged and pleaded and sobbed and it took years and years and years, 20 to be exact, until it finally happened to me. I couldn't believe it, I couldn't believe what I was feeling and if it can happen to me, I promise you you will receive it also. Have patience, have faith in God and Jesus and believe. God Bless!

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7003 Location: USA

Diane · Cobra Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 470

Hi Bridget,

I too experienced joy at the moment of the new birth within me. This joy is God Himself....the indwelling Holy Spirit. I praise Him for it pleased Him to reveal Himself to me and I was filled with joy unspeakable #Onfire

1 Peter 1

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us ((((((((((new birth))))))) into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you (((((((greatly rejoice))))))), though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an ((((((((((inexpressible and glorious joy))))))))....

Love, Diane
_________________
God is love and love never fails.

The Beautiful Heresy – If believing that God is loving enough, powerful enough, and wise enough to save all of His creation makes me a heretic, sign me up.

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

Well Rev my friend, to you what I received from God is unscriptual. You have a right to your opinion, I told you what I received and what I felt, it was real then just as it is real today. I pray that you to may receive that 'born again' experience. Jesus said you must be born again. That is scriputual.

Star · Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:06 pm Post subject:

Bridget and Di,

I've been really blessed looking into these things lately. As Di quoted heres the end of it.

1Peter 1:8-9 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with JOY UNSPEAKABLE and FULL of GLORY: Receiving the END of YOUR FAITH, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

He is both the Author and Finisher of our faith. This is so Kool! He is the Beginning and the End. I love the "wording" and how these words trickle into HINTS of the beauty of our salvation. These are SO WORTH thinking about you just fill up on the inside over these words.

What IS our HOPE? ITs CHRIST IN US (Our *HOPE OF GLORY right?)

Now FAITH is the *SUBSTANCE* of things *HOPED FOR (Good things ALREADY HERE) WHO IS OUR HOPE? HIM!!!! This is why we are filled with the Joy unspeakable. In a Little while (in the begining when we once regarded Christ after the flesh) we would see Him no longer, but in a little while you will see me, the picture was for the disciples as a Woman giving birth to a child having Pain for her time has come so it was with all of us who believe. These are the "sufferings" we enter with the JOY of the child born (Christ IN US) that IS the GLORY that would follow!! The Joy unspeakable. And though we do not "literally see Him now" we are filled with Joy unspeakable because as Abraham (The Father of FAITH) we see Him WHO IS INVISIBLE. So Faith is the SUBSTANCED (Christ) of things HOPED FOR and our Hope of Glory IS HIM IN US and by seeing Him who is invisible is in connection to being changed by BEHOLDING HIM (a complete paradox! But no less true is this not the beauty of the Lord!?)

For faith in that which is SEEN is not faith at all but in that which is UNSEEN. For faith is THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR!!

The EVIDENCE OF HIM who is INVISIBLE yet we can still BEHOLD Him who is invisible! As Abraham who could see with the eyes of FAITH (the UNSEEN).

I'm tripping on this beauty! God is AWESOME, Praise Him Name!

So we receive THE END (WHO IS THIS?) of our FAITH . Its Christ!

What is our HOPE? Christ!!! (IN US)
WHO is the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED FOR? Christ!!
Faith is the SUBSTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR (Who IS???) CHRIST!!!
When that which is PERFECT (Who is perfect?) IS COME? THIS IS CHRIST!!

What is our TESTIMONY? Christ IS COME IN THE FLESH!!!! He is our REWARD, our FULLNESS, OUR GLORY, OUR LIFE, our TREASURE. Our POSSESSION, OUR INHERITANCE our ALL in All.

I'm jumping up and down here lol!! Laughing

In Him

Star Very Happy

Climbing Higher · Tadpole Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 17

Bridget, maybe I missed something in your post, maybe because I didn't see or hear you when you posted it, but somehow it made me feel bad, like you were rebuking me or something. I don't know? Did you read my last post (on the bottom of page 2 of this thread)?

You say you are not perfect, that nobody is perfect, that all we can do is our best. That sounds like a works trip, to me, like you are the one doing it in your own unaided strength. Do you what I mean? If God is truly the author and finisher of our faith, then isn't it logical to conclude whatever we do is because of His power and strength? If so, then why do you believe only you can do your best?

But if you believe only God can empower you to do something that is well pleasing to Him, then why don't you believe He can empower you to do everything that is well pleasing to Him? Why do you believe only you can do your best? What does your strength have to do with it? Doesn't everything we do, if it's well pleasing to God, depend on what we allow Him to do in and through us?

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

I don't understand why you feel I was rebuking you, I wasn't. It was meant to lift you up. I hear people claim to be 'born again' simply because they accept Jesus Christ. When I told you that was not being born again it was simply a statement of fact. You have probably noticed, if you attend church, that my statements do not agree with church doctrine. My beliefs come from the Bible alone. God's love is real. The proof of that love is in the suffering death of His only Son.
Matthew22:37 Jesus said to him:(One of the Pharisees)

You shall love the Lord your God
with your whole heart,
with your whole soul,
and with all your mind.
This is the greatest and first commandment. The second is like it:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
On these two commandments the whole law is based and the prophets as well.
Read your Bible. Learn of Him. God Bless!

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7003 Location: USA

Edited by JP
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

Climbing Higher · Tadpole Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 17

Bridget, I think it was just me. Thanx for the clarification. Would you be willing to address the other questions in my last post? I agree with you about what the Bible says regarding rebirth and righteousness. Anyone willfully, deliberately, practicing known sin, with no real sense of repentance, is not truly born again. But this is why the rest of your post made me confused. It sounds like you are saying born again believers do the best they can in spite of all the known sins they cannot help doing. In what way were they different before their rebirth?

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

Climbing Higher, I hate to put this so bluntly, but the reason is, I live in the real world. In the real world we live with our human nature as well as our spiritual side. I know who I was before and who I was after. I tried to explain the feeling of peace and joy that I felt, but also when I went to read the Bible it all made sense. Everything seemed to fall into place. It was amazing. God doesn't wave a magic wand to make you perfect. He gives you a new sense of understanding and a feeling of great peace inside. You still have the same temptations, the world doesn't change, you do.

Climbing Higher · Tadpole Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 17

Okay, I can accept your personal testimony. Please, don't misunderstand me. My big quest in life, at this stage of the game, is to understand how the promises of God, the promises of perfection, can be a reality in my life now, rather than after years of sinning and repenting less and less. Even my atheist grandfather got less and less ornery and objectionable as the years rolled on, but somehow I doubt that's what the Lord had in mind when He promised moral perfection. By the way, I believe physical perfection comes later on, when Jesus returns. In the meantime, we must contend with temptation until the day we die or until the day Jesus returns. It's not a sin to be tempted, it's how we handle it that determines our guilt or innocence, victory or failure.

I want to believe that the promises of perfection depend, not on my own unaided ability, but rather on God's ability to empower me to partake of His divine nature, to partake of His holiness. I like the idea that God's promises come with a "money back" gaurantee, that is, if I depend on Him to empower me to experience His promises, then I will be totally satisfied with the results. It makes so much sense to me. But I realize some people are content to do the best they can do, give God credit where credit is due, but they seem to tolerate blowing it every once in awhile, as if sinning now and again is simply a normal part of being a Christian, as if we're supposed to sin every once in awhile.

But do the promises of God imply sinning and repenting is a normal, healthy part of being born again believers? If so, then why aren't they written that way, why don't they say so? That's my dilemma. Which is sort of sad, because no one else seems to be bothered by such things. Most people I know don't get bent out of shape when they blow it, they just pretty much blow it off, chalk it up to being human. It doesn't seem to bother them that sin kills, that it caused Jesus so much suffering on the cross. They don't seem to view it that way. To them, sinning is just what humans do, no big deal. They don't seem to be in any big hurry to stop sinning.

Is there something wrong with me? Should I just adopt a "take it or leave it" or a "wait and see" attitude about the promises of God, about sinning and repenting? Is it better to just blow off sinning by saying, Oh well, I'm only human, nobody is perfect? Or, is it best to assume the promises do not mean what they say, and just strive to do my very best and leave it up to Jesus to make up the difference? Am I too obsessed with the promises of perfection? with the idea that Jesus can empower me to stop sinning now and tomorrow and forever?

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7003 Location: USA

From the very first temptation in the Garden of Eden (read Genesis 3), temptation has been one of Satan’s major weapons against man.

Read 1 John 2:16

Genesis 3:6 1 John 2:16
Good for food ........................ “Lust of the flesh”
Pleasing to the eye ................. “Lust of the eyes”
Desirable for gaining wisdom ... “Pride of life”

Since the fall, mankind has been governed by the flesh, now corrupted by a sinful nature (Gal.5:19-21).

Victory Won By Christ
Jesus came to the earth to reverse the effects of Adam’s fall (Romans 5:12-19). He did this in two ways:

Through his life
Jesus was tempted in everything, exactly as we are, “yet was without sin” (Hebrews 4:15).

Luke 4:1-13 1 John 2:16
Stones to bread ........................ “Lust of the flesh”
Kingdoms of the earth .............. “Lust of the eyes”
Pinnacle of the temple .............. “Pride of life”

Jesus defeated every temptation from Satan. And he opened the way for us to experience the same victory.

Through his death on the Cross
The Cross released us from sin’s grip (Rom.6:11-14; 8:1-4,9). We are now free to walk in obedience to God.

The Daily Victory
Because of this great victory won for us by Christ, the Christian can now confidently face any attack from Satan. Here are six keys to continual victory:

Know the victory is already won. Satan was totally defeated at the Cross (Col.2:14-15). We are not trying to get victory. We live in the victory that Christ has already won (Romans 8:37).

Walk in step with the Spirit. A new power is placed within the Christian – the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:1-2). We are to walk in obedience to his inner promptings day by day (Gal.5:16,22-25).

Recognize temptation for what it is. Temptation is not sin; yielding to temptation is! (see James 1:15; Genesis 4:6-7). Even Jesus – the sinless Son of God – was tempted, but he never gave in.

Know the way of escape. Read 1 Corinthians 10:13 We are now called to resist temptation in our own strength, but by escaping into God’s presence. The Lord himself is our way of escape.

Live in daily submission to God. Read James 4:7 This is the simple secret to resisting temptation. Firstly, we are called to live in a daily submission to God. Then when temptation comes, we have the authority of that submission to resist. And Satan will flee!

Avoid obvious areas of temptation. Read Psalm 101:3 We must never think we are invincible to Satan’s temptation. He is “a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8-9).

Above all, the secret to victory over temptation is in keeping our focus on Jesus (Heb.12:2). If we maintain this daily focus, overcoming temptation is a result of our walk with God (Col.3:1-4; Phil.4:8; Gal.5:16).
“...for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith” 1 John 5:4.

Copyright © 1998 Paul Collins, Bunty Collins and David Collins. A ministry of Fountaingate Christian Foundation.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

I don't think you quite understand what I have said here. I do not sin in the way you think. I am not living a life of maybe, I live a life completely and totally in subjection to God. Even though in my eyes I have not sinned, I am assuming that somewhere, because I am human I have. Pershaps in something I said or thought, or did or didn't do. These things I that don't think are sinful but maybe to God they are? Do you understand what I'm telling you. I do not understand where you read that God requires perfection from any of us. I may have missed it in scripture and if so please direct me to it.

Rev, that was so helpful. This person, is struggling with his/her faith and you have condemed him/her already. You may think you're the judge, but you have been commanded by Jesus Himself not to judge anyone. So why do you? I think that is a big problem in the church. So many holier then thou Christians who go to church just to judge everyone there. Forgive me but it makes me sick.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7003 Location: USA

Bridget, what exactly are you talking about? How and where did I judge or condemn?

I offered a pretty thorough dissertation on temptation and the gracious power through Christ to overcome that temptation and you lambast me as being judgmental and condemning? How so?

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

Well I must admit I do live a very quiet ordinary life. Sorry! I no longer work, except for an hour with children in the second grade. I have a mentally ill daughter who requires a lot of time and effort. She does work but doesn't drive so I am her driver. My husband died 6 years ago.
I'm not quite sure why you would speak to me that way. I said I do not sin, which means I keep the 10 commandments. If you are talking about the sins of men, their lusts and desires, sorry Charlie, I don't have them.
I like my life just the way it is. You know what kiss means. It means 'keep it simple, stupid'.