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The Law and the Levitical Priesthood

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Zathrus
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Joined: 28 Aug 2002
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Location: WI USA

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:38 am Post subject: The Law and the Levitical Priesthood

Hebrews 7:11, 12

Quote:

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

I'd like to point something out here that I hope all who read will find to be of benefit.

In the minds of old testament Jews, the law and the Levitical priesthood were inseparable. You could not have one without the other. Both were integral to the covanent God made with Israel.

To say that Jesus is our high priest, yet we are rewarded or punished based on our adherance to the law, is a Westernized idea that would have been completely foreign to anyone in the 1st century with an understanding of God's covanental relationship to Israel.

To say that we are saved or condemned based on our adherance to the law of the old covanent, whether it be the Sabbath law or any other commandment, is to also say that we are not under Jesus' high priesthood but under the Levitical preisthood.

Listen to what the apostle wrote as he continued in the same chapter:

Quote:

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

If we acknowlege Jesus as our high priest, we must aknowlege that the law that pertained to the Levitical priesthood has served its purpose and passed away. Why?

Quote:

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

I am thankful that I am under a new and better covanent, with a high priest after the order of Melchisedec "who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life", with a new temple not made with hands, and under the law of the spirit of life not "the law of a carnal commandment. "

Raoooul
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Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 128

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: The Law and the Levitical Priesthood

Zathrus wrote:

Hebrews 7:11, 12

Quote:

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

If we acknowlege Jesus as our high priest, we must aknowlege that the law that pertained to the Levitical priesthood has served its purpose and passed away. Why?

Quote:

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Ah, but if i might, if what you quote is the truth then the teachings of the prophets of G-d's prophets is false:
(Mal 4:4) Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded to him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
(Mal 4:5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

For this speaks of the end of days, and states that everything that G-d commanded is still obligated to everyone.

Zathrus
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Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270

Location: WI USA

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: The Law and the Levitical Priesthood

Raoooul wrote:

For this speaks of the end of days, and states that everything that G-d commanded is still obligated to everyone.

Where then is the Levitical priesthood? In order to correctly obey the Torah, don't they have to be present?

For that matter, where is the temple? Weren't there certain sacrifices, commanded by G-d to be offered every year, which could only be offered at the temple in Jerusalem? You could probably quote the passages I'm referring to sooner than I could find them.
Has G-d somehow suspended these commandments?
Without the opportunity to offer a passover sacrifice at the temple every year, aren't your sins just accumulating before God?

Raoooul
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Joined: 10 Jul 2004
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Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: The Law and the Levitical Priesthood

Zathrus wrote:

Raoooul wrote:

For this speaks of the end of days, and states that everything that G-d commanded is still obligated to everyone.

Where then is the Levitical priesthood? In order to correctly obey the Torah, don't they have to be present?

Why do you assume that it is not still in existance ? Is it because there are no offerings today ? Such is a poor basis for assuming that there are no priests left, as you can find them in any synagogue in the word.

Quote:

For that matter, where is the temple?

Do you want a quote from the Tanak, or the NT ? Both yell us that it is in heaven awaiting the revelation of the messiah.

Weren't there certain sacrifices, commanded by G-d to be offered every year, which could only be offered at the temple in Jerusalem? You could probably quote the passages I'm referring to sooner than I could find them.
Has G-d somehow suspended these commandments?[/quote]

Obviously, as He took His toy and went home until the days of the messiah.

Quote:

Without the opportunity to offer a passover sacrifice at the temple every year, aren't your sins just accumulating before God?

Have you ever bothered to read the verses cobcerning the Pesach offering ?
(Lev 23:5) In the fourteenth day of the first month at evening is the LORD'S passover.
(Lev 23:6) And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread to the LORD, seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
(Lev 23:7) In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work in it.
(Lev 23:8) But ye shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is a holy convocation, ye shall do no servile work in it.
(Lev 23:9) And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
(Lev 23:10) Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them, When ye shall have come into the land which I give to you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the first-fruits of your harvest to the priest:
(Lev 23:11) And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
(Lev 23:12) And ye shall offer, that day when ye wave the sheaf, a he-lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt-offering to the LORD.
(Lev 23:13) And the meat-offering thereof shall be two tenth-parts of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire to the LORD for a sweet savor: and the drink-offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of a hin.
(Lev 23:14) And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the same day that ye have brought an offering to your God: It shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

Now maybe it is just me, but i see nowhere in this passage anything about it being for the forgiveness of sin(s). The reason that i do not find it is because the Pesach offering has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sin.
The idea that such should be is only from the NT which contradicts the word of G-d.

RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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Location: USA

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:40 am Post subject:

I'm confused, did you answer the true question regarding the passover sacrifice or did you just change the topic and avoid directly answering?

I could be wrong, but I thought Zathrus asked:

Quote:

For that matter, where is the temple? Weren't there certain sacrifices, commanded by G-d to be offered every year, which could only be offered at the temple in Jerusalem? You could probably quote the passages I'm referring to sooner than I could find them.
Has G-d somehow suspended these commandments?
Without the opportunity to offer a passover sacrifice at the temple every year, aren't your sins just accumulating before God?

What I read in your answer only spoke about the purpose of the sacrifice. So am I off base here? Did you answer the question asked or just avoid it?
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

Raoooul
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Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 128

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:21 am Post subject:

RevJP wrote:

I'm confused, did you answer the true question regarding the passover sacrifice or did you just change the topic and avoid directly answering?

I could be wrong, but I thought Zathrus asked:

Quote:

What I read in your answer only spoke about the purpose of the sacrifice. So am I off base here? Did you answer the question asked or just avoid it?

Nope, i did not avoid the question. And i did answer it. Let me slimplify the answer given by G-d's word:
(1Ki 8:49) Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling-place, and maintain their cause,
(1Ki 8:50) And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions in which they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them:

This is speaking about the time then the Temple is no longer standing, and no sacrifices can be offered. Yet, it speaks about how we are to go before G-d to recieve attonement for our sins.

RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003

Location: USA

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:09 am Post subject:

Quote:

This is speaking about the time then the Temple is no longer standing, and no sacrifices can be offered. Yet, it speaks about how we are to go before G-d to recieve attonement for our sins.

Perhaps you can be a little clearer for me on this. How exactly do you come to this conclusion based on the passage you posted? I see no reference to the temple no longer standing.

I'm not sure I would be able to draw the same conclusions and maintain the contradictions you are promoting based on what you've posted.
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JP's Mind - my blog

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

Zathrus
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Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270

Location: WI USA

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:59 am Post subject:

Raoooul wrote:

That is most remarkable. There are Jews, in any synagogue, who can trace their lineage back to Levi? What about the other tribes? Can any Jew today trace their ancestry back to one of the patriarchs?

Raoooul wrote:

Both yell us that it is in heaven awaiting the revelation of the messiah.

Wrong. It was destroyed by the Romans.

Concerning the suspension of some of G-d's commandments, you would have us believe:

Raoooul wrote:

Obviously, as He took His toy and went home until the days of the messiah.

but you yourself have said in another of your posts, concerning whether any of G-d's law could have passed away

Raoooul wrote:

(Mat 5:18) For verily I say to you, Till heaven and earth shall pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Tora, till all be fulfilled.

As is obvious, the heavens and the earth still exist, hence all of the Torah is still in full force according to Iesus.

You used this quote to prove that everyone is accountable to do the whole law. You have contradicted yourself, and worse, the Word of G-d in saying that the laws concerning sacrifices to be made in the temple have been suspended. Not only that, but these Levitical priests that are to be found in any synagogue in the world are neglecting their priestly duties, which I'm sure God finds unacceptable.

Indeed, it would seem to me that while God once allowed the temple to be destroyed and His people taken into captivity for 70 years, and He brought some of them back to Israel and allowed the temple to be rebuilt under Nehemiah, the fact that for over 1900 years now there has been no temple would indicate to me that maybe He doesn't plan on bringing the temple back to earth anymore.

Raoooul
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Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 128

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:24 pm Post subject:

RevJP wrote:

Quote:

This is speaking about the time then the Temple is no longer standing, and no sacrifices can be offered. Yet, it speaks about how we are to go before G-d to recieve attonement for our sins.

Perhaps you can be a little clearer for me on this. How exactly do you come to this conclusion based on the passage you posted? I see no reference to the temple no longer standing.

As i posted in my original posting of the passage:
(1Ki 8:44 Webster) If thy people go out to battle against their enemy, whithersoever thou shalt send them, and shall pray to the LORD towards the city which thou hast chosen, and towards the house that I have built for thy name:
(1Ki 8:45 Webster) Then hear thou in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.
(1Ki 8:46 Webster) If they shall sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou shalt be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives to the land of the enemy, far or near;(1Ki 8:47 Webster) Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent and make supplication to thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness;
(1Ki 8:48 Webster) And so return to thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, who led them away captive, and pray to thee towards their land, which thou gavest to their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name:
(1Ki 8:49 Webster) Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling-place, and maintain their cause,
(1Ki 8:50 Webster) And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions in which they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them:

The verses that i underlined specifically refer to the time of the destruction of the 1st and 2nd Temple:
(1Ki 8:46 Webster) ...and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives to the land of the enemy, far or near;

Raoooul
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Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 128

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject:

Zathrus wrote:

Raoooul wrote:

That is most remarkable. There are Jews, in any synagogue, who can trace their lineage back to Levi?

Absolutely, in fact some know whether or not they are in the lineage of the high priest.

Quote:

What about the other tribes? Can any Jew today trace their ancestry back to one of the patriarchs?

Yes, the Levites can also, as well as the descendants of king David. Btw, the Lubavitcher Rebbe was one such person.

Quote:

Raoooul wrote:

Both yell us that it is in heaven awaiting the revelation of the messiah.

Wrong. It was destroyed by the Romans.

Concerning the suspension of some of G-d's commandments, you would have us believe:

Raoooul wrote:

Obviously, as He took His toy and went home until the days of the messiah.

but you yourself have said in another of your posts, concerning whether any of G-d's law could have passed away

Raoooul wrote:

Hardly, as with the commandment to have children/a son, this only applies to those that can physically have children. So to with the sacrifices, as the Temple is not extant, then the sacrifices cannot be offered today:

Quote:

Indeed, it would seem to me that while God once allowed the temple to be destroyed and His people taken into captivity for 70 years, and He brought some of them back to Israel and allowed the temple to be rebuilt under Nehemiah, the fact that for over 1900 years now there has been no temple would indicate to me that maybe He doesn't plan on bringing the temple back to earth anymore.

Then you differ with Christian scholars that agree that the Temple will be rebuilt from verses the word of G-d:
(Eze 41:1 Webster) Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle.

Ezekiel is all future at this point.

Zathrus
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Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270

Location: WI USA

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:03 pm Post subject:

Raoooul wrote:

Please pardon me if it doesn't seem like the same situation to me at all. The commandment to have children is one thing, and it's understandable that a law may exist but not apply in every situation. But Israel had the temple and the priesthood and it was destroyed by foreign armies, very much as Moshay and the prophets foretold would happen if Israel departed from the LORD.

The temple and the priesthood are the foundations, the core of Israel's convenant relationship with G-d. If they're gone, especially for this long, I don't think you can blame people like myself for concluding that perhaps that covenant is over and done with.

Raoooul
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Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 128

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:23 pm Post subject:

Zathrus wrote:

Raoooul wrote:

It is not the foundation of our relationship with G-d, but merely a way through which we can approach G-d. The foundation of the Jews' relationship with G-d is the Tora that G-d composed and gave to Moshe.

Quote:

If they're gone, especially for this long, I don't think you can blame people like myself for concluding that perhaps that covenant is over and done with.

Especially since this has always been the Christian position. Yet, the word of G-d is replete with statements about the end of days telling us that in the end it will be the Jew to whom the non-Jews will go to learn the truth of G-d's word.

As for the time, there are only about 250 years left before the messiah must come whether we deserve it or not. This is obvious in:
(Zec 9:9 GB) Reioyce greatly, O daughter Zion: shoute for ioy, O daughter Ierusalem: beholde, thy King commeth vnto thee: he is iust and saued himselfe, poore and riding vpon an asse, and vpon a colt the foale of an asse.

Zathrus
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Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270

Location: WI USA

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:18 pm Post subject:

Raoooul wrote:

Zathrus wrote:

If they're gone, especially for this long, I don't think you can blame people like myself for concluding that perhaps that covenant is over and done with.

Very true. And I think those prophetic predictions were fulfilled when all of us non-Jews who seek G-d turned to the Jewish apostles of Jesus to learn the truth of G-d.

From some of your posts, I've gathered that a "new covanent" is not what you believe G-d had in mind, but a "renewed covanent", meaning, I gather, giving the covanent given to Israel through Moses another try.

I think that a major point that the Bible, including even the old testament, is trying to make, is that all attempts by man to be righteous in G-d's sight through his works, be it observing the law of Moses or any other set of rules or regulations, have been utter failures. In addition to my reason cited above for believing that G-d has brought an end to the Mosaic covanent with Israel, I'll add: Why would He attempt to make this work once again when throughout Israel's history they consistently failed to meet its righteous requirements?

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