Why can Jehovah do what "the LORD" cannot?

franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

Why is Jehovah able to destroy souls, but not "the LORD?" Can the true God create something and then not be capable of destroying it? I suggest that even if one is so privileged as to be granted immortality, Jehovah will still prove quite able to crush that soul like a grape if forced to do so!

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6845 Location: USA

I'm not sure I understand this post. Nor the underlying assumptions made in it.

franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

The god that began to evolve in the imagination of men after the use of the divine name was discontinued by apostate Jews and then by apostate Christians could only be inferior to the true God. After all, how can a created being fabricate anything (much less a Creator) better than himself!

My question is simply this: Can "the LORD" destroy a soul or not? Jehovah can, and has done so on numerous necessary occasions.

You might also include whether he created souls at all, or whether they always existed?

I know what the Bible says, I'm just not sure what others believe on the subject.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6845 Location: USA

franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

To me, Jesus' God and Father is Jehovah. (John 20:17) This is the God I worship. While most professed Christians I converse with have no such clearly defined notion of God, I have learned that some say Jehovah is all three gods of the trinity, not the Father alone. For those who prefer the substitution of "the LORD" for the original divine name as most widely known and pronounced today, I ask anyone, can your God destroy a soul.

I don't think most trinitarians go around referring to their God as Jehovah, so I made a distinction. Since that may have caused confusion, just respond as regards the God you worship, whatever he goes by.

Samuel · Not So Newbie Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 7

Hi. I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what you are asking. When did Jehovah, as the God of the OT, ever completely destroy a 'soul'?

franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

Samuel · Not So Newbie Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 7

Hi franksinatra. I am a JW. As this is the JW thread, I was supposing that you were coming from the JW perspective. JW's believe that just because Jesus said that God was able to destroy both a body and soul in Gehenna, it does not mean that he has already done so. Whereas you seem to be indicating that Jehovah has been eternally destroying people for some time. The Witnesses believe man is a soul, that is, that his body and animating spirit can have no life if separated from each other. So when the Bible speaks of destroying body and soul in Gehenna (as the NWT renders it) this refers to destroying the body and the unique spark of life (which they feel cannot consciously continue apart from the body) eternally. But they believe that this occurs for some at a future time, during the Judgement. Further, JWs do not believe that any of these ones has an immortal soul, or that anyone but Jesus has been given immortality yet, So Jehovah destroying the 'souls' (body+animating spirit) of these ones is not his destroying anything immortal. JWs don't believe that Jehovah can destroy those who have been granted immortality. Therefore if you worship Jehovah as a JW then you don't believe that your god can destroy an immortal life either, but that He has volutarilly given up that right in the case of these ones.

franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

Samuel · Not So Newbie Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 7

Hi Franksinatra. You might wish to view my introductory post to see my position. I am not bound in my beliefs by the teachings of the Society, but by the Bible, and I don't think the two are always in agreement. I am presently a JW and have been for over thirty years. I said "JWs believe" because I was coming from the perspective of thinking , at first, that you were a JW and that you were coming from that perspective, as I pointed out in the last post. I was trying to outline what JW's believe so that we could lay next to it the ideas you a presenting to see if they match. Yes lower case g was a typo sorry. Embarassed

I don't really consider this a "court case" frank, just a friendly discussion, so I don't feel that we need to keep things quiet. 1 Pet 3:15. Nor do I consider all the people here to be 'unbelievers', though I'm sure I may not agree with all of their views.

Incidentally, I have the same problem in identifying you as a Witness. You didn't use the NWT in your post (referring to 'hell'). Most Witnesses avoid other translations and, as I said, I can't quite square what you have said with the Witness teaching on the matter. But perhaps I misunderstood you.

Christian love.

Sam.

franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

Samuel · Not So Newbie Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 7

I don't quite get your point Frank. Jehovah knows I am a Christian. He knows I have been a JW all this time, he recognises I might not be one in the future, but I'll still be a Christian, which is what he requires.

(The following represents the JW position on these matters as I understand it)

Jehovah has not destroyed 'souls'. He has temporarilly terminated lives by destroying the body. JWs believe that those 'lives' remain in 'Jehovah's memory' and will get a resurrection - unless you are from Sodom, in which case we (JWs) can't really make up our minds - a resurrection that is made possible because Jehovah has not destroyed the animating spirit, a key ingredient of the 'soul' according to JW understanding. By this understanding, Jehovah has a set day to render Judgement and eternally destroy 'souls' (body+animating spirit, or Jehovah's 'memory' of those who have died ). This day is yet in the future and does not involve the destruction of anything 'immortal', because JWs believe that the anointed who become immortal spirits (not who have immortal 'souls') cannot be destroyed.

That is my understanding of our (JW) teachings. Again, I can't quite reconcile what you are saying with this Frank.

What do you say to the statement "God cannot lie", how do you reconcile it with statements such as "nothing is impossible with God"?

MoJo · Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject:

Reaper · Hamster Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 86

Dear Frank,

I like several others here were somewhat confused by the phrasing of your first question , “Why is Jehovah able to destroy souls, but not "the LORD?"

Typically in the King James Version of the Bible when the term “Lord” is referred to in Capital letters, (“LORD”) it is in reference to the Father himself, Jehovah God (YHWH) this in distinction from the word “Lord” in the lower case which usually is in reference to our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

One example of this is found in Psa 110:1, “The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adon, Jesus), sit thou at my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool.”

Now as to your thought, “Can the true God create something and then not be capable of destroying it? I suggest that even if one is so privileged as to be granted immortality, Jehovah will still prove quite able to crush that soul like a grape if forced to do so!”

The problem with this suggestion my friend, and I understand you are only suggesting this as a possibility, is that you would have to change the definition of the word immortal, i.e. its true significance and meaning.

The definition of IMMORTAL is, a state or condition not liable to death. Not merely a condition of freedom from death, but a condition in which death is impossible. The Scriptures assert that all those who shall be accounted worthy of taking part in the first (Greek, protos, “best” or “chief”) resurrection, must have at first been those who were thoroughly tried and proven by none other than God himself (Psa 66:10) thus if approved by God we can be assured that no occasion would have arrived in which, even if it were possible, that God would have to destroy these his faithful children.

Omniscience is a quality of God’s character. Omniscience means knowledge of all things. God perceives all things. He remembers all things. He has all the senses (Psalm 94:9)—sight, hearing, smelling, touch and taste, and, what no other creature can have, intuitive knowledge. He perceives everything—past, present and future.

God’s mentality in its reflective powers has the aptitude of remembering all things that he has ever perceived, and all that is yet to be seen. God will have the aptitude to remember in detail through all eternity. In his omniscience, his reasoning powers enable him to draw perfect inductions and deductions, reasoning from some particulars to general conclusions, and from general conclusions to details. At the same time, he can draw definite conclusions as to all possible contingencies anywhere and everywhere at anytime. God’s mentality, according to divine revelation, in its imaginative powers, due to its perfect reflection and perception and reasoning, has the aptitude for inventing his plans and creations.

Think of the infinite mind that was able to invent everything that exists in this great universe, in the spirit world and in the material world. They are all creatures of his mind, the products of his power. God alone creates.
All these intellectual powers referred to are infinite in their capacity, infallible in their uses, and perfect in their development. This is the omniscient God.

Do you honestly believe that he would allow any being to obtain the divine nature, immortality, indestructibleness in which he was not totally confident of?

But we know for a fact that none of those so honored as to obtain immortality, the divine nature would ever, ever! Turn against God or his ways, note the apostle Paul’s definition of immortality.

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption… For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor 15:50,53

The apostle Paul here states that “Immortality” and “incorruption” go hand and hand, that is, it is impossible for an immortal being to become corrupted. Just as it is equally impossible for God who is an immortal, incorruptible being to commit the simplest sin, a lie.

metothezero · Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:47 am Post subject:

Methinks that when Frank refers to Jehovah, he is referring to the god of the witnesses. Whereas when he refers to 'the LORD', he is referring to the God of Christianity. Now, mealsothinks that he would make these comments upon the thoughts that the Witnesses have that Jehovah is the proper name of God, and to take away this name is to take away His deity, hence to call Him anything save Jehovah is to not worship the same God. Is this correct Frank?

If so, could you please tell me the proper name of God given in the Old Testament Scriptures. And I do not mean the NWT of the Old Testament, or any English translation, I mean the Hebrew name given by God in the past to Moses. Yahweh is normally a better rendering of this Hebrew word. Therefore if you were going to make the assumption that we must refer to God with His proper name then perhaps you had better use His proper name, wouldn't that be most fitting? Would you like me to refer to you by some slang of your name? Jehovah is the anglicized form of Yahweh, of the Hebrew name for God. It would be equivalent of me calling you frankipoo or the frankster. That is not your name. Your name is Frank. At least your sn is but that is all I have to go off of.

Now about God destroying souls. I do believe you are making reference to the Watchtower teaching of annahilation of the soul. Perhaps this is true. Most likely it is not. But that is another discussion. I just wanted to make a comment about this here, I would love for our other discussion to begin and continue.

Samuel, I am very much interested in speaking with you. But for some odd reason I like to discuss open matters in public, so I will not be giving you my email address for any reasons. If you would like to begin a conversation, I would be more than happy to continue it.