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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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STABYC,
I find it a little hard to believe that you have not let your experiences shape who you are. I think you may be supressing some things. (I could be completely wrong)
I do agree with what you said about God taking care of the situations instead of personal vengeance. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | [quote="RevJP
I found the part of the sermon where he entreats his congregation to welcome and embrace gay, but celibate, worshipers as part of the congregations particularly interesting, and quite a change from what most 'christians' have done in the past. |
I'm supposing only interesting because you may not hear much about other christians doing that. Shouldn't everyone be welcomed and embraced as part of the congregation? What about welcoming gays that are in monogamous relationships? They may not approve, but shouldn't the still be welcomed? I mean, those who have divorced and remarried are welcomed, aren't they?
| Quote: | Hmmmm......  I have been referring you to these sermons and providing links for quite a while - I'm touched that you take such care in reading my posts. |
Haha!! Actually, I found the link and discovered that I had already read parts one and two. I see what he is saying, but I do disagree with him. Especially, when he tries to disprove one logic out there that Romans 1 is speaking of heterosexual engaging in homosexual acts of lust. Piper basically says this cannot be because since heterosexual males don't have a desire for homosexual males, then the phrase 'burned in their desire (lust) toward one other' makes no sense in that logic. I disagree. If this is the context, then the males would simply have unnatural desire or lust for other men, although they are naturally oriented towards femals. Just because their desire would be unnatural to them does not negate the fact that it is desire (king james says 'lust'). His second reason for opposition, I have never heard of. He says in verse 27, the women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural. First off, this is verse 26, not 27. Secondly, all that I have read on the definition of 'nature', 'natural', and 'against nature', I have never read that 'against nature' sums up what the Greeks referred to as homosexual behavior per se. I've had different finding in this regard. Note, that 'exchanged' is a term that implies something was had and THEN exchanged for something else. Which could support the heteros engaging in homo behavior. However, there are various theories in regards to Romans 1. Pick whichever one your spirit embraces! I find that this chapter includes reference to idolatry. That is, not humans worshipping other humans, but humans who worshipped images made to resemble man, bird, four footed beasts, and creeping things. The sex involved in this context was a part of ritualistic worship to these false images. I don't recall Piper mentioning this. He seems to focus on human beings being sexual with other humans, without mentioning the images that were made as a part of these orgiasitc acts of worship. Needless to say, this is yet another person's opinion of what the text is referring to. I have mine. He has his. You have yours.
| Quote: | | You assume that those who have professed to be 'Christians' are indwelt. I do not make that assumption and understand that only God truly knows. |
My intent was not to make that assumption. I simply wanted to mention that there are people who claim to be christian and have the Holy Spirit in them and that their views are correct and in no way wrong. I am aware that there are those who claim to be christian who may not have the Spirit in them. Again, like you, only God knows. My point is that there is you, who may claim to interpret with the Spirit's guidance and there are others who claim the same. If your conclusions on a text differ, who is found to be correct? How do you determine that? Is the incorrect one automatically denounced of having the indwelling Spirit because they were wrong? Again, only God knows. You would seem to question all those who don't agree with your version of interpretation as possibly not having the Spirit or being true christians. This sound like what I have been reading about in Bart Ehrman's book "Lost Christianities". A book about scripture that existed that were not included in the now bible, the differences of views among the many christianities of ancient times, and how the most influential christian views dominated and came to be as we know them today. A good read, I'm sure. On assumptions: I'd say it is assumed by many christians that because something is inspired of God (via humans) that it (that something) is considered infallible since the source (God) is infallible. I would disagree. Where is it written that this is the case? It is an assumption as I see it. Divine inspiration is not a guarantee of infallibility. Does anyone consider what their pastor says in his inspired messages to his congregation to be infallible (because he may refer to them as being inspired)?
| Quote: | | My point was simple, the Holy Spirit aides in and provides interpretation of scripture. Slavery being condoned by anyone claiming to be a Chrisitian is not in concert with the whole of scripture, it is a derived doctrine, a convoluted belief by self-serving people in order to lend tenuous support to their power base. |
This may be true. Doctrine is another thing as well. I'm sure there are christian doctrines that should not be, but are.
| Quote: | | I'm not referring to, nor have ever referred to the 'majority'. I am speaking of the truth, and the Holy Spirit. You are promoting individual truth - each to his own interpretation. I am saying there is only the truth of God and it is given to us in His Word and He has given us His Spirit to assist in the proper interpretation. |
[/quote]
I would say you are excercising individual truth, but you are not aware of it. There is only the truth of God, but there is also the human's perception of that truth. The truth itself is not so much in question as is the fallible human's ability to understand what that truth is. If you see one thing one way and believe the Spirit has led you to see it that way while various members in your church and abroad may see it another way...who is right? For everyone claims to have the Spirit's leading and to be doing God's will, yet they differ. If only one truth, why don't genuine persons conclude the same thing? Why do pastors differ on the same issue from one christian radio/tv program to the next? |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:28 am Post subject: |
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summertime,
you said
| Quote: | | Shouldn't everyone be welcomed and embraced as part of the congregation? What about welcoming gays that are in monogamous relationships? They may not approve, but shouldn't the still be welcomed? I mean, those who have divorced and remarried are welcomed, aren't they? |
I don't think it's scriptural to say that everyone is welcome in the Lord's congregation. Sinners who are quite satisfied in their sins are not welcome, and are cast out if they refuse to repent.
1 Cor 5:5-7 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1 Cor 5:9-11 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| larryjf wrote: | summertime,
you said
| Quote: | | Shouldn't everyone be welcomed and embraced as part of the congregation? What about welcoming gays that are in monogamous relationships? They may not approve, but shouldn't the still be welcomed? I mean, those who have divorced and remarried are welcomed, aren't they? |
I don't think it's scriptural to say that everyone is welcome in the Lord's congregation. Sinners who are quite satisfied in their sins are not welcome, and are cast out if they refuse to repent.
1 Cor 5:5-7 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1 Cor 5:9-11 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. |
I said many things. I will respond to the one thing you responded to: Again, those who have divorced and remarried (for reasons other than fornication) are welcomed, aren't they? Some who have even remarried more than once (for reasons other than fornication) are continuously welcomed in, aren't they? Those who are in non-married relationships attend church, don't they? |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:07 am Post subject: |
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summertime,
you said
| Quote: | | I said many things. I will respond to the one thing you responded to: Again, those who have divorced and remarried (for reasons other than fornication) are welcomed, aren't they? Some who have even remarried more than once (for reasons other than fornication) are continuously welcomed in, aren't they? Those who are in non-married relationships attend church, don't they? |
I know you said many things, but i wanted to address this one point if that's ok.
Those who have had unbiblical divorce and are unrepentant should not be welcome into the Lord's congregation.
If those who you refer to as being in non-married relationships are committing fornication, they should not be welcome in the Lord's congregation.
A church that welcomes all unrepentant sinners is not the church of Christ. Jesus called sinners to repentance, not to a life of sin.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mk 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mk 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Lk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
etc, etc... |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | [quote="larryjf"]
A church that welcomes all unrepentant sinners is not the church of Christ. Jesus called sinners to repentance, not to a life of sin. |
What better place to be than a church to repent or eventually repent? |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:28 am Post subject: |
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summertime,
all that you keep saying is not based in scripture, that's why you aren't quoting scripture.
It may be fine to accept unrepentant sinners into "the church of summertime", but it's not ok in the church of Christ.
The church is the body of Christ, and He is without sin. A church should not tolerate unrepentant sin simply because Christ did not tolerate it.
If a person is not going to come under the complete Lordship of Jesus, and give all their members over to Christ for righteousness, then they are not in the body of Christ - they are not in the church.
How can sin be a part of the body of Christ?? It can not! |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Pilgrim's Progress; in the low country of conceit
Meeting the Young Man Ignorance:
And I slept, and dreamed again, and saw the same two Pilgrims going down the mountains along the highway towards the city. Now, a little below these mountains, on the left hand, lieth the country of Conceit; from which country there comes into the way in which the Pilgrims walked, a little crooked lane. Here, therefore, they met with a very brisk lad, that came out of that country; and his name was Ignorance. So Christian asked him from what parts he came, and whither he was going.
Ignorance. Sir, I was born in the country that lieth off there a little on the left hand, and I am going to the Celestial City.
Christian. But how do you think to get in at the gate? for you may find some difficulty there.
Ignorance. As other people do, said he.
Christian. But what have you to shew at that gate, that may cause that the gate should be opened to you?
Ignorance: I know my Lord's will, and I have been a good liver; I pay every man his own; I pray, fast, pay tithes, and give alms, and have left my country for whither I am going.
Christian: But thou camest not in at the wicket-gate that is at the head of this way; thou camest in hither through that same crooked lane, and therefore, I fear, however thou mayest think of thyself, when the reckoning day shall come, thou wilt have laid to thy charge that thou art a thief and a robber, instead of getting admittance into the city.
Ignorance: Gentlemen, ye be utter strangers to me, I know you not; be content and follow the religion of your country, and I will follow the religion of mine. I hope all will be well. And as for the gate that you talk of, all the world knows that that is a great way off of our country. I cannot think that any man in all our parts doth so much as know the way to it, nor need they matter whether they do or no, since we have, as you see, a fine, pleasant green lane, that comes down from our country, the next way into the way.
When Christian saw that the man was wise in his own conceit, he said to Hopeful, whisperingly, There is more hope of a fool than of him. And said, moreover, When he that is a fool walketh by the way, his wisdom faileth him, and he saith to every one that he is a fool. What, shall we talk further with him, or out-go him at present, and so leave him to think of what he hath heard already, and then stop again for him afterwards, and see if by degrees we can do any good to him? Then said Hopeful --
Let Ignorance a little while now muse
On what is said, and let him not refuse
Good counsel to embrace, lest he remain
Still ignorant of what's the chiefest gain.
God saith, those that no understanding have,
Although he made them, them he will not save.
Hopeful: He further added, It is not good, I think, to say all to him at once; let us pass him by, if you will, and talk to him anon, even as he is able to bear it.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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STABYC
Little Guppy
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 36
Location: KNOXVILLE, TN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| larryjf wrote: | STABYC,
I find it a little hard to believe that you have not let your experiences shape who you are. I think you may be supressing some things. (I could be completely wrong) |
Of course the experiences have shaped who I am, but they have not shaped my soul, Jesus did that. He exercised those demons a long time ago, so I have nothing to suppress.
| larryjf wrote: | Those who have had unbiblical divorce and are unrepentant should not be welcome into the Lord's congregation.
If those who you refer to as being in non-married relationships are committing fornication, they should not be welcome in the Lord's congregation. |
Just curious, are you going to be the first to cast a stone? Are you sinless? How can you know whether they are unrepentant or not? How can you know what their situation is? If someone who has been a sinner all their life read what you said, they would likely think that there was no hope for them and most of the time that's not true. I hurts my heart to hear anyone say that people should not be welcome in the church. Where better to be, expecially if you are a sinner? Where else would you learn how to be repentant? Unless I can walk in your shoes, who am I to say what's in your heart?
I don't mean this to come across as hateful or harsh or accusing, as when I read over it it does sound like it, so please don't take it that way. These are just things that I wonder about when I hear someone say what you said.
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Jesus loves me, this I know |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| larryjf wrote: | | that's why you aren't quoting scripture. |
Yet another person who thinks he knows why people do what they do or don't do what they don't do. All knowing? I think not. If I've learned anything here and in life, it's that eveyone has something to say. Going to the bible to quote a text and then to relay what it means (to the person quoting it) is almost equivalent (on this forum) to saying my interpretation rules! All others not likened unto mine is wrong, going against scripture, etc. If you can't see the error in that, I don't know what to tell you. If you can't even see that is what's going on, I'm for sure speechless. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| summertime wrote: | | larryjf wrote: | | that's why you aren't quoting scripture. |
Yet another person who thinks he knows why people do what they do or don't do what they don't do. All knowing? I think not. If I've learned anything here and in life, it's that everyone has something to say. Going to the bible to quote a text and then to relay what it means (to the person quoting it) is almost equivalent (on this forum) to saying my interpretation rules! All others not likened unto mine is wrong, going against scripture, etc. If you can't see the error in that, I don't know what to tell you. If you can't even see that is what's going on, I'm for sure speechless. |
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Holywind
Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:07 am Post subject: |
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STABYC 
You responded to LarryJF . . . "are you going to be first to cast a stone"
Just a note to all. We CAN CAST STONES if we are doing it scripturally.
When Jesus said that statement to those who brought the woman taken IN THE VERY ACT of ADULTERY. They did NOT follow what the LAW said. If she was taken in the very act of adultery, they did NOT bring the MAN too. The law said they were to bring BOTH to be stoned if that was there intent, but you COULD NOT bring one withouth the other. 
Their SIN was in keeping only PART OF THE LAW. Letting their BUDDY off for HIS part in the SINFUL CONDUCT, while requiring the full force of the LAW to be applied to the other person INVOLVED IN THE ACT with their BUDDY.
It ONLY WORKS RIGHTEOUSLY when we apply the WHOLE LAW. 
The LAW is the LAW OF LOVE. Either FORGIVE or APPLY THE LAW.
_________________
Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be afraid, rightly dividing (correctly parsing) the word of truth. |
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STABYC
Little Guppy
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 36
Location: KNOXVILLE, TN
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Holywind wrote: | STABYC
You responded to LarryJF . . . "are you going to be first to cast a stone"
Just a note to all. We CAN CAST STONES if we are doing it scripturally. |
I agree. There are also times when you have to make a judgement, but when you do you need to be absolutely sure you know what you think you know.
| Holywind wrote: | When Jesus said that statement to those who brought the woman taken IN THE VERY ACT of ADULTERY. They did NOT follow what the LAW said. If she was taken in the very act of adultery, they did NOT bring the MAN too. The law said they were to bring BOTH to be stoned if that was there intent, but you COULD NOT bring one withouth the other.
Their SIN was in keeping only PART OF THE LAW. Letting their BUDDY off for HIS part in the SINFUL CONDUCT, while requiring the full force of the LAW to be applied to the other person INVOLVED IN THE ACT with their BUDDY.
It ONLY WORKS RIGHTEOUSLY when we apply the WHOLE LAW. |
I understand that, but the words that pertain to my thought are "Ye without sin". Regardless of what they caught who doing, my point was if you are without sin, then judge away. Are we not supposed to "pray daily" for forgivness for our sins because we ALL sin?
| Holywind wrote: | | The LAW is the LAW OF LOVE. Either FORGIVE or APPLY THE LAW. |
Exactly. Your post actually proves what I was trying to say, unless you know the person's WHOLE story, unless you know what they were doing and who they were doing it with, and know without a doubt that they are unrepentant, will never repent or it is too late for them to repent, then it might be better to forgive, love, encourage and welcome than to judge, condemn and turn them away from the Lord's congregation.  
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Jesus loves me, this I know |
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larryjf
Tiger
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 848
Location: boothwyn, pa, usa
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Just curious, are you going to be the first to cast a stone? Are you sinless? How can you know whether they are unrepentant or not? How can you know what their situation is? If someone who has been a sinner all their life read what you said, they would likely think that there was no hope for them and most of the time that's not true. I hurts my heart to hear anyone say that people should not be welcome in the church. Where better to be, expecially if you are a sinner? Where else would you learn how to be repentant? Unless I can walk in your shoes, who am I to say what's in your heart? |
I am without the sin of divorce.
Whether or not they are truly repentant can be a more complex issue. However, if they are justifying themselves in it they are definitely not repentant. If they do not justify themselves and say that they are repentant, you should take them at their word - unless their fruit proves otherwise.
You know what their situation is because you ask them.
I want sinners to understand that there "is no hope" for them UNLESS they repent and turn to Christ. How else will they turn from their sinful ways to follow God?
Church is the body of Christ, as such it is reserved for repentant sinners who are in Christ. If they have nothing to repent of, then they don't need a savior. Christ calls sinners to repentance, He does not call them without it. That is the very gospel "repent, the kingdom of God is at hand".
Church is not for "learning to repent" or for learning anything. Church is the body of Christ, it is for communion and worship. When we learn at church it is a side-effect of our gathering, the reason for our gathering is worship and communion.
2 Cor 6:14 ...what communion hath light with darkness?
They should be learning about Christ and repentance through evangelization and the witness of the Spirit. Their own conscience will even teach them that they need to repent. And they have the bible, the laws of Moses - all to lead one as a teacher to Christ.
The bible tells us not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers
2 Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you |
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STABYC
Little Guppy
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 36
Location: KNOXVILLE, TN
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| larryjf wrote: | | I am without the sin of divorce. |
Is that the only sin you consider bad enough to keep someone out of your church? If so, then why are we discussing this in this particular forum subject?
| larryjf wrote: | Whether or not they are truly repentant can be a more complex issue. However, if they are justifying themselves in it they are definitely not repentant. If they do not justify themselves and say that they are repentant, you should take them at their word - unless their fruit proves otherwise.
You know what their situation is because you ask them. |
So you are just going to stop people at the door of your church and say "Hey bud, you divorced? No? Come on in. Hello, you divorced? Yes? Sorry, can't come in."
But wait, there are reasons for Divorce in the Bible. So what you should really ask the person who said yes is, Why are you divorced? What happened? Did your wife/husband commit adultry? No? Sorry you can't come in because you are going to HELL! Forgiveness? Not in here!" 
| larryjf wrote: | | I want sinners to understand that there "is no hope" for them UNLESS they repent and turn to Christ. |
I agree.
| larryjf wrote: | | How else will they turn from their sinful ways to follow God? |
What do you mean how else? By being turned away from the church? That should turn them from their sinful ways?
| larryjf wrote: | | Church is the body of Christ, as such it is reserved for repentant sinners who are in Christ. If they have nothing to repent of, then they don't need a savior. Christ calls sinners to repentance, He does not call them without it. That is the very gospel "repent, the kingdom of God is at hand". |
| larryjf wrote: | Church is not for "learning to repent" or for learning anything. Church is the body of Christ, it is for communion and worship. When we learn at church it is a side-effect of our gathering, the reason for our gathering is worship and communion.
2 Cor 6:14 ...what communion hath light with darkness?
They should be learning about Christ and repentance through evangelization and the witness of the Spirit. Their own conscience will even teach them that they need to repent. And they have the bible, the laws of Moses - all to lead one as a teacher to Christ. |
So you are saying we are not supposed to learn anything in church? Are you kidding? That is the one place that I go to do most of my learning. Church for me is a weekly learning, praising and repenting experience. Why have a preacher? Just to stand up there and say Praise God, Praise Jesus and read bible passages regarding Praise (I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just not the only thing )? And where would you hear evangelizism if not in church? On TV? And would all unbelievers always know what the Spirit was if they felt it, or follow their consious if they could not go to church? Where would they go for guidance? If they are an unbeliever, chances are they mostly know unbelievers. God might send someone to evangelize to them, but what if He wants them to go to a church and they get turned away? Think they would try again? Hopefully, but maybe not. But according to what you said, even if they were welcomed into the church, they would probably be back to their old ways again before long because you can't learn anything in church and this person would sit down and try to read the Bible and of course would not understand it and have no where to go for guideance. The husband/father is supposed to be the spiritual guidance in the household. Well, maybe in a perfect world! (No offense to those husbands/fathers that are, but there are not many of you in this world)
| larryjf wrote: | The bible tells us not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers
2 Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? |
I don't believe this means you can't try to help them or talk to them or try to invite them to church to "learn" about Jesus, and why they are living wrong, and how they can change. I believe there is always hope until there is no hope, and in my heart and mind the only reason for no hope is if Jesus finally gives up on an unbeliever, and how would I personally know that he had given up on them? Unless Jesus specifically let me know that that was the case, I would have hope that they could change and accept him as their Savior.
 Sorry if I rambled a bit there, but I feel very strongly about this issue. I don't ever want to be accused of turning my back on someone that could have become a believer, and would not want to be part of a church that would do that either. I know that according to the bible, there are reasons that a church must sometimes do this. But like I said before they need to be perfectly sure that they know the whole story.
Did anything I said make sense to anyone but me? 
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Jesus loves me, this I know |
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