What trinitarians evade

rarndt01 · Tadpole Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 16 Location: Ohio

I believe the bible and not so called Protestant commentators. What most trinitarian lay people are told is that God is UNDIVIDED. Trinitarian teachers claim Jesus is God Almighty, as well as the Father and the Holy Spirit. It all sounds good, but it creates a massive and unbiblical problem. There cannot be ONE ALMIGHTY and yet THREE persons.

The Son of God is not the Father and the Father is not the Son of God. The bible says they are separate divine beings and not one big Trinity of one gobbledygook of divinity.

The Son came FORTH FROM the Father and RETURNED TO the Father. The Son dwelled WITH the Father in the beginning, before creation. Thus there are TWO beings and not one. Trinitarian teachers will admit they share divinity, but deny they ARE SEPARATE. JW's do not do this. Jehovah Witnesses are at least consistent and more biblical.

Also the Holy Spirit was never looked upon as a separate spirit from God the Father until after the council of Hippo in 380 A.D. The Holy Spirit was always considered the power or extension OF God's being upon man. And NEVER a separate spirit from God the Father's own spirit. Being a trinitarian forces one to believe the Father has a spirit, the Son has a spirit and the Holy Spirit is another spirit. That makes THREE spirits and not ONE spirit. Let's believe the bible.

franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

Questions for trinitarians:

How can Jesus be the mediator between God and man and God at the same time? (1 Tim2:5; Heb 12:24)

Jesus' God is the Father. (John 20:17; Eph 1:17) Where does it say that the Father's God is Jesus?

Why do the Father and son have personal names, but not the holy spirit? (Rev 14:1)

When God spoke at Jesus' baptism and at the transfiguration, why did he say Jesus was "his son" if actually his equal? Why not: "This is God the son" or even "This is my God?" (Matt 3:17; 2 Pet 1:17)

franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

To rarndt01:

For your information, there are at least two that post to this forum that "have been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away." (Heb 6:4-6) One goes by "rondoggy."

Take care.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7003 Location: USA

rarndt01 · Tadpole Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 16 Location: Ohio

Trinitarians ask why is it so hard for non trinitarians to accept the trinity of One God in three persons? Because nowhere does the bible say God is three. But it does say he is ONE. Also say for a minute that this one Almighty God came down to earth and took on human form. Say for the sake of argument this was true. Why then do we not find biblical evidence for this? The bible CLEARLY says God SENT his only begotten SON and not himself to earth.John 3:16.

It is true that the Son of God is divine, but that is not the same thing as saying he is the Almighty God himself or his own Father. Otherwise the New Testament would time after time contradict itself in the RELATIONSHIP between the Father and the Son.There would be NO RELATIONSHIP between TWO beings. For Jesus to be the Almighty and totally equal in every way to his Father, he would have to BE THE FATHER. One is not equal to the one who gives you life. Nor is one equal to the one who sends you or raises you from the dead.

Even the early church Fathers and others taught that the Father was always UN-begotten, but that the Logos who we know as the Son was BEGOTTEN of the Father. There was a moment when the Son did not exist and the Father brought him forth. This is why he is called the "only begotten" of the Father and the "firstborn" of all creation. This was strongly believed in the early church before the Nicene council. Read the quotes of the early fathers yourself and see if they thought the Logos was begotten of the Father. I have read them.

It was through the influx of paganism INTO the church that the trinity dogma was established and not established from scripture. I urge every reader to examine this out for themselves.

Reaper · Hamster Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 86

The idea actually expressed by the word “trinity” is, three gods are one God, though the proponents of the trinity doctrine would not so express it. Rather they put it as follows: three persons are one God. Yet as they say of each of their three persons that he is God, their doctrine actually implies that three Gods are one God.

They further claim that these three persons are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and these are by them meant by the term trinity. They admit that they can neither understand nor explain it, but claim that it must be believed on pain of eternal torment (another FALSE DOCTRINE).

The fact that it is not understandable, i.e. unexplainable, yea, self-'contradictory, is, they claim, to be expected on the ground that it is a mystery, which is an expression that they use of the trinity and other teachings to mean an actually non-understandable, or unexplainable and self contradicting idea, e. g., three are one and one are three.

Of course in our arithmetic we learned better, i. e., that 1+1+1=3, not one. But they claim that this is a Bible mystery; hence must be received with blank unquestioning minds. To this we reply that the word “mystery” as used in the Bible and profane Greek never means self-contradictory, unreasonable, or unexplainable things; but in the Bible it is used to mean a secret not understood by the uninitiated, but understood by the initiated.

The following are all the passages in which the Creek word “mysterion” occurs in the New Testament:(Matt 13:11; Mark 4: 11; Luke 8: 10; Rom 11:25; 16:25 1 Cor 2:1, 7; 4:1; 13:2; 14:2; 15:51; Eph 1:9; 3:3; 4, 9; 5:32; 6: 19; Col 1:26, 27; 2:2; 4: 3; 2 Thess 2:7; 1 Tim 3:9, 16; Rev 1:20; 10: 7; 17: 5, 7.

Let the reader look up each of these references, and he will find in none of them the thought that Bible mysteries are unreasonable, not understandable, unexplainable or self-contradictory things. Every where he will find our definition true, that Bible mysteries are secrets not understood by the uninitiated, but understood by the initiated

There is a second line of argument against this doctrine.

It is contrary to the seven axioms for Biblical interpretation. These axioms are as follows:

An interpretation of a Scripture or a doctrine to be true must be (1) harmonious with itself; (2) with every Bible passage; (3) with every Bible doctrine; (4) with God's Character; (5) with the Ransom; (6) with facts; (7) with the designs of the Bible, i. e., glorify God as Supreme, honor Christ as the Executive and Mouthpiece of God, and contribute to the outworking of God's plan for the Church and the world.

If any interpretation or doctrine is in harmony with ALL these seven axioms, it gives us prima facie evidence of being true; but if it in any way impinges against any one of these axioms, it gives us prima facie evidence of being false.

The Trinitarian doctrine violently impinges against every one of these seven axioms, and is evidently, therefore, false.

metothezero · Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:09 pm Post subject:

Reaper, Rarndt01, and Franksinatra,
I would love to continue the discussion in which you have initiated. Please do not assume that because your comments have gone unanswered by us Trinitarians that we either cannot or are too afraid to do so. We are quite capable of defending ourselves, and will do so when the need arises. I think that need has come. Not necessarily an urgent need, because I do not think anyone reading your post will be in danger of believing them, but simply a need to be defended against false claims. Therefore, if you are willing to finish and defend the claims you have made, please by all means, I am here to prove you wrong.
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MoJo · Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:26 am Post subject:

Reaper, although I don't believe in the trinity, I too would be very interested to hear how you harmonize all the scriptures and doctrines. You've made quite a statement, albeit minus any scriptural proof. Meto and I have been agreeably studying the trinity from opposite sides of the fence for about a year and I'm sure we would both be interested in how you arrive at your conclusions. Very Happy

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shepreach · Cobra Joined: 08 Nov 2003 Posts: 493 Location: ga

i'm with meto and mojo on this one. i've studied enough of the early writings to know arianism when i hear it.
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Van · Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:52 am Post subject:

Who or what is the Spirit of Christ?

metothezero · Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:32 am Post subject:

Now, Sir Reaper, you have made the initial claims, hence you will be the one defending yourself. This will not turn around to we Trinitarians attempting to defend our doctrine. Why would if of course, you say it is contradictory and 'mysterious', hence there is no reason for us to attempt to defend it. You however, you have presented something that you believe to be true. I am not questioning your beliefs, many people honestly believe something to be false, but that is another matter. Since you have made claims against the Trinity, you must back them up and prove that they are beyond a doubt true and damning to the Trinitarian doctrine.

Claim #1

franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

As good Trinitarians, let's save all the words and burn the heritic at the stake! At least we can ban him from the Forum. WWJD - What would John (Calvin) do?

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7003 Location: USA

Frank, I'm not sure your comments are useful, nor very nice. Claims have been made and a challenge to support those claims has been given, it may be your need to lash out when challenged to support your questionable beliefs, but the challenge was not issued to you. Let Reaper answer without the added inflamation.
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franksinatra · Big Hamster Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 93

Sorry. I guess I do get a little excited. Even though I know why people can't see the obvious when it comes to spiritual realities, I can't help but feel insensed when folks place people like Calvin, Luther and others on pedestals when Jesus, Paul and John would have denounced them as "children of the Devil." (1 John 3:10)

These individuals are relevant to the Trinity because their teachings on the subject are a basis for present day adherents.

For those who have ears, do as Jesus said and look at their fruit. (Gal 5:22,23) I don't see murder inferred hear, but rather among the works of the flesh described in verses 19-21.

I was raised Catholic, so I'll help Reaper out on claim # 2. The book Catholicism states: “Unless [people] keep this Faith whole and undefiled, without doubt [they] shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this: we worship one God in Trinity."

In 325 C.E., a council of bishops in Nicea in Asia Minor formulated a creed that declared the Son of God to be “true God” just as the Father was “true God.” Part of that creed stated: “But as for those who say, There was [a time] when [the Son] was not, and, Before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance, or is created, or is subject to alteration or change—these the Catholic Church anathematizes.” (A Short History of Christian Doctrine, by Bernhard Lohse, 1980 Edition, page 53.)

The document, called the Tome of Damasus, included the following statements:

“If anyone denies that the Father is eternal, that the Son is eternal, and that the Holy Spirit is eternal: he is a heretic.”

“If anyone denies that the Son of God is true God, just as the Father is true God, having all power, knowing all things, and equal to the Father: he is a heretic.”

“If anyone denies that the Holy Spirit . . . is true God . . . has all power and knows all things, . . . he is a heretic.”

“If anyone denies that the three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are true persons, equal, eternal, containing all things visible and invisible, that they are omnipotent, . . . he is a heretic.”

“If anyone says that [the Son who was] made flesh was not in heaven with the Father while he was on earth: he is a heretic.”

“If anyone, while saying that the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, . . . does not say that they are one God, . . . he is a heretic.” (The Church Teaches, translated and edited by John F. Clarkson, S.J., John H. Edwards, S.J., William J. Kelly, S.J., and John J. Welch, S.J., 1955, pages 125-7.)

Loads more could be included, but this should be sufficient for truth seekers.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7003 Location: USA

That is all well and good, but this is a bible-discussion board, quote scripture if you will not Catholocism, and please, allow Reaper to answer for himself, I am sure he is capable.

No offense to you Frank, but we are all very aware of the JW position on the Trinity, their 'evidence' and arguments have been discussed and disproven thoroughly on this board, many times. Reaper offers, potentially, a new view. I for one would like to see his replies.
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