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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Leviticus 18:22
"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin. |
You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination
| Quote: | Leviticus 20:13
"The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense. |
If a man lies with a male as if he were a woman, both men have committed an offense (something perverse, unnatural, abhorrent, and detestable); they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
| Quote: | 1 Corinthians 6:9
Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, |
Do ye not know that unrighteous [persons] shall not inherit [the] kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who make women of themselves, nor who abuse themselves with men,
Special comment on the following two verses. Here God punishes some who are not homosexual, to commit homosexual acts, it has nothing to do with love.
| Quote: | Romans 1:26
That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. |
For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,
| Quote: | Romans 1:27
And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. |
And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own [1] bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.
| Quote: | | Just a few to make my point, |
| Quote: | 1 Timothy 1:10
These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching |
[For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine
My comparing verses comes from the Amplified Bible.
There's a slight difference between abusing oneself and willingly in love comit one's life to another 
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Summertime, it would be helpful if you could use the quote function in your posts. It is really quite easy, just copy the portion you want to post into what you are typing, highlight that portion, and click on the quote box. It'll save you a lot of typing and make your posts easier to understand. |
Thanks. I will try to remember that. I may forget, so work with me. It shouldn't be too difficult to read my posts if I forget:)
| Quote: | | summertime wrote: | | me: Then you also must believe that women should be silent in churches and only ask questions of their husbands at home because the bible specifically says that, right? |
Actually you are pretty close. That one passage out of context is not acceptable - as it is out of context, but when considered with the scriptural dictate that women should not have spiritual authority over men, I beleive that women should not be in positions of spiritual authority such as being the Pastor. |
Did I do that right? I guess I'll find out. Anyway, scriptural authority. Define, please! Would this be in reference to someone like Joyce Meyer? My point is that texts like Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1 are taken out of context as well. You seem to think that if something is condemned in association with idolatry, then outside of idolatry, it it must be okay. That's not whay I'm saying. Is that what you are saying?
| Quote: | | Quote: | rev: Slavery again Summertime? Why do you insist on trying to compare the two? Has it not been discussed ad nauseum?
me: Because my point seems to be missed all the time or ignored. |
Not true Summertime. Not true at all. Your point and posts regarding slavery have been read and addressed quite thoroughly. Both by me and by Van, I find it interesting that you have posted little or no replies to our posts regarding the subject. If anything has been missed or ignored it is by you regarding our rebuttal of this failed argument. |
I'll have to take the time to read over them. Why do you think Paul did not speak out against slavery as he did all other ways of life?
| Quote: | | Not all references to homosexual activity are in the context of idolatry, and the one passage that does refer to this does not limit the concept of homosexual acts only as participation of idolatrous worship, but includes that participation. |
Which texts that refer to homosexual activity are not in the context of idolatry? Which one passage that does refer to idolatry are you speaking of?
| Quote: | | Any activity perpetrated in acts of idol worship would be sinful in that context, even those acts which are not normally considered sinful. That scripture specifically states homosexual acts as sinful indicates a condition of sin in the act itself, not in the reasons for it. |
I'm loving this quote box thing:) What is "that scripture" that you are referring to that is speaking of same sex acts in and of itself?
| Quote: | | Not all references to homosexuality in the scriptures are connected to the idea of idol worship, so it is untruthful to limit said acts as sinful if only perpetrated in the act of idol worship. |
Again, which references do not refer to idolatry?
| Quote: | | Loving your neighbor as yourself? I thought you said that homosexual love, committed homosexual relationships are okay becasue they are loving relationships. [url]That then does not apply to other loving relationships if someone else does not approve of the relationship? Or if someone else is hurt or disturbed by that relationship[/url]? |
Not sure what you are saying here! (underlined)
| Quote: | | You state one thing is okay in a certain context, but any other example presented in the same context is then riddled with qualification and exception... anything to maintain the illusion that what you support is acceptable to God, in spite of scripture which says it is not. |
An example of this would be....?
| Quote: | | Quote: | rev: How about if I am not married and truely in love?
me: Not married yet in love and committed for life? That's a marriage! You may be surprised to know that marriages of the bible did not come to be because the two persons were in love first. Paper work verifying marriage does not make a marriage. Where were Adam and Eve's papers? What if you were married and NOT in love. Would that be a marriage? If you lost all documentation of your LEGAL marriage, would you still be married? |
This is a shining example of qualification and exception. I said nothing about being committed for life. I simply said truely in love. |
Truly in love and not married and having sex and not concerned with committing to one another in a union of marriage? Hmm. Personally, that is not right in my view of scripture, but I could be wrong as anyone including you could.
| Quote: | | To further this, marriage is a union sanctified by God, the scriptures tell us that a man would leave his mother and cleave to his wife, becoming one, etc. etc. etc. This is a sanctified, lifelong, union - biblical marriage. |
This is a Genesis reference. If you view the creation story as being one that has the purpose of telling us universally what is the acceptable union, then, that's you. From that view, you would also have to agree that every male/female union that did come about as a result of a man leaving his father and mother would HAVE TO be fruitful and multiply. Any deviation from this (ie. not being fruitful and multiplying) would be disobeying what is clearly said in the Genesis scriptural text. Personally, I see the creation story as just that: a creation story. Its purpose, as I see it, is to show HOW things came to be as they are and HOW humanity begets humanity. It is not to say that whatever you see in this creation story is the finality of the human experience. Just as you cannot limit the Holy Spirit to the confines of bible pages when the Spirit needs to reveal what needs to be revealed, which may not have been revealed in bible times (ie. that slavery should not be, that women can be pastors, that no man should view another human as unclean or defiled, etc.)
| Quote: | | This applies because sex outside of said union is referred to as fornication, which is a sin BTW. |
Do you have a Strong's concordance or some other bible tool? What is the definition of 'fornication' in hebrew/greek?
| Quote: | | This leads into those 'committed, loving same sex relationships you keep on about. There is no scriptural provision for a man leaving his mother and cleaving to his buddy George. Hence, no scriptural dictate, mandate, or allusion, to the sanctity of same-sex marriage. In this case, said same-sex relationship involving sex would be fornication, and a perversion of the natural design for relations and a violation of scripture - sin. |
[quote][quote]
Basically, what you are saying is marriage is only defined as between a male and a female, right? What makes a male male? What makes a female female? If you can be married to Christ spiritually, why can't a man be married to another man spiritually? Or, are you not opposed to that. You are just opposed to the physical aspect of the relationship? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Summertime,
I was considering answering all of your questions and realized how tiring it would be to repeat what has been posted over and over again.
It appears to me that most of your questions reflect that you have not read what has already been posted, and I am not really inclined to repost said things.
An example:
| summertime wrote: | | If you can be married to Christ spiritually, why can't a man be married to another man spiritually? Or, are you not opposed to that. You are just opposed to the physical aspect of the relationship? |
That you asked this question indicates that you have not truly read what I have already posted, nor have you taken the time to read through the back posts on the subject, as I have answered this question already, numerous times.
Respectfully, I would suggest some back reading on the threads in this forum.
As for your slavery questions, I have answered them in part, numerous times and Van was nice enough to post and extensive answer on the issue, which answered all of your questions and objections quite thoroughly.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Summertime,
I was considering answering all of your questions and realized how tiring it would be to repeat what has been posted over and over again. |
I know what you mean. I am not into repeating what I've already said either. Been there, done that!
| Quote: | | It appears to me that most of your questions reflect that you have not read what has already been posted, and I am not really inclined to repost said things. |
Understood. Re-direct me and I will read them.
| Quote: | That you asked this question indicates that you have not truly read what I have already posted, nor have you taken the time to read through the back posts on the subject, as I have answered this question already, numerous times.
Respectfully, I would suggest some back reading on the threads in this forum. |
I have no idea where to start. Suggestions?
| Quote: | | As for your slavery questions, I have answered them in part, numerous times and Van was nice enough to post and extensive answer on the issue, which answered all of your questions and objections quite thoroughly. |
I think my thing is that I don't know where to start. I am open to reading them. I may not agree, but I'm always open to reading them. I only have internet access at work on lunch, so not much time to do much but post. However, if you can tell me where to look up the slavery thing, I will read what I can. I will look around the forum and see if I can find it. The result of our communication did not result in agreement, but to communicate is good in and of itself. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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Read the thread "Questions on Homosexuality" from the begining.
Off the top of my head I do not remember which thread holds Van's post regarding slavery, but it was in response to something you posted on homosexuality compared to slavery. I do know that you posted after it so it was in a current thread in which you were participating.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Read the thread "Questions on Homosexuality" from the begining.
Off the top of my head I do not remember which thread holds Van's post regarding slavery, but it was in response to something you posted on homosexuality compared to slavery. I do know that you posted after it so it was in a current thread in which you were participating. |
Thanks!! |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5286
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:39 am Post subject: Note |
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Sommertime, you know that you can click on your profile & find a small part of every post you ever posted on this board.
Or, you can go to the top of the page & click on "Search" & if you have a key word or phraise or maybe a name. If can lookup many things on this board for you. Just play with it some, you might be suprised! 
Take care,
_________________
Much Love Nobby
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