The BIBLE says that the Trinity is true...

DYKJ · Not So Newbie Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 9

The Bible, THE WORD OF GOD, says the Trinity is true...

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
- KJV

God is the Father... (2nd Peter 1:17)
Jesus is the Word... (John 1:1,14)
The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit... (Acts 2:4)

There it is in the Word of God. God said it.

The Trinity is true.

God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one.

God is God. (Genesis 2:4)
Jesus is God. (1 John 5:20)
The Holy Spirit is God. (Acts 5:3-4)
They are one. (1 John 5:7)

PLease all... www.dykj.ownsthis.com

Nobby

Hi DYKJ,
I'm glad to see you made it to our board. I believe you will enjoy it. Just make yourself at home, read the board rules at the top of any of the forums. If you have questions either ask the Mod. RevJP or myself.
You can e-mail me or use the PM's (private messages) at the top of the page.

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me [essentially and perfectly morally] good? There is no one [essentially and perfectly morally] good--except God alone....
If Jesus was indeed God, he would not have denied he (Jesus) was good, and thated that only one, God, is good.

Also, 1 Timothy 2:5-7
5 For there [is only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all [people, a fact that was] attested to at the right and proper time.
7And of this matter I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (special messenger)--I am speaking the truth in Christ, I do not falsify [when I say this]--a teacher of the Gentiles in [the realm of] faith and truth.

Fake

footnote,
Verses taken from the Amplified Bible.
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.”

DYKJ · Not So Newbie Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 9

Did you read what I typed at the top?

No one... lowercase meaning no person... Jesus wasn't just a person but he was also God in the flesh. (Colossians 2:9)

Mar 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." -KJV

Why callest thou me good? This is said, not as denying that he was good, or as being angry with him for calling him so, but in order to lead this young man to a true knowledge of him, and his goodness, and even of his proper deity:

there is none good, but one, that is, God; some render it, "but one God", as the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions; and so the words are a proof of the unity of the divine being, and agree with Deu_6:4, but are not to be understood to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, who, with the Father, are the one God: nor do these words at all militate against the deity of Christ, or prove that he is not God, as the Jew objects (a); seeing this is not to be understood of the person of the Father, in opposition to the Son and Spirit, who are equally good: nor does Christ, in these words, deny himself to be God, but rather tacitly suggests it; since he is good in the same sense in which God is good: in Matthew it is added, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", Mat_19:17, this Christ said not as his sense, that the way to eternal life lies in keeping the commandments of the law; but he speaks in the language of the Pharisees, and of this man; and his view is, to bring him to a sense of the impossibility of obtaining eternal life by these things, as the sequel shows: wherefore the above Jew (b) has no reason to confront the followers of Jesus with this passage, as if it was a concession of his, that it is impossible any should be saved without keeping the commands of the law of Moses.

1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

1Ti 2:5 - For there is one God,.... This does not so much regard the unity of God, with respect to himself, or his divine essence, though that is a truth; but does not carry in it any apparent and forcible reason why all men should be prayed for, for which it is produced; but the unity of God with respect to men, as that there is but one God, who is the Creator of all men, and who, in a providential way, is the Saviour of all men; and in a way of special grace is the one God, the one covenant God of all sorts of men, of Jews and Gentiles; for he has taken of the latter into the covenant of his grace, as well as the former, and has loved them with a special and distinguishing love, has chosen them in Christ to salvation, and has sent his Son to redeem them; and of these he calls by his grace, regenerates, sanctifies, adopts, pardons, and justifies; see Rom_3:29 and therefore all sorts of men, Gentiles as well as Jews, are to be prayed for: another argument follows,

and one Mediator between God and men; a Mediator is of more than one, and has to do with two parties; and these at variance among themselves, between whom he stands as a middle person; his business is to bring them together, and make peace between them; and such an one is Christ: the two parties are God and his elect, who in their natural state are at a distance from God, and at enmity to him, and who have broken his law, and affronted his justice; Christ stands as a middle person, a daysman between them, and lays his hands upon them both; has to do with things pertaining to the glory of God, and makes reconciliation for the sins of the people; brings them that were afar off nigh to God, and makes peace for them by the blood of his cross, by fulfilling the law, and satisfying justice for them; in consequence of this he appears for them in the court of heaven, intercedes and pleads for them, is their advocate, and sees that all covenant blessings, of which he is the Mediator, are applied unto them, and preserves their persons, which are committed to his care and charge, safe to everlasting happiness; and this Mediator is

the man Christ Jesus; not that he is a mere man, for he is truly and properly God; or that he is a Mediator only according to the human nature: it was proper indeed that he should be man, that he might have something to offer, and that he might be capable of obeying, suffering, and dying, and so of making satisfaction in the nature that had sinned; but then, had he not been God, he could not have drawn nigh to God on the behalf of men, and undertook for them, and much less have performed; nor would his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice, have been available to cleanse from sin, to procure the pardon of it, justify from it, make atonement for it, or make peace with God: the reason why he is particularly mentioned as man, is, with a view to the argument in hand, praying for all men; since he who is the Mediator between God and man, has assumed a nature which is common to them all: and this Mediator is said to be one, not so much in opposition to other mediators, angels or saints departed, though it is a truth, and stands full against them, but with respect to men; there is but one Mediator between God and all sorts of men, through whom both Jews and Gentiles have an access to God, and peace with him; and therefore prayer through this Mediator should be made for all. So the Jews say of the Messiah (u), that he is ?? ?????, "a Mediator, God", a middle person between God and men. And they call him ????? ????????, "the Pillar of mediation" (w) or the middle Pillar; that is, the Mediator or Reconciler. And Philo (x) the Jew speaks of the word, as ?????, a "middle" person, and standing in the middle between the dead and the living, and between God and men. The Ethiopic version here renders it, "there is one elect of God"; which is one of the characters of the Messiah, Isa_42:1.

In Conclusion... 1 John 5:20
- God Bless!

In Matthew Chater 4 The devil used the word in a tricky and untruthful way against Jesus but Jesus was not tricked...

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

metothezero · Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 1:19 am Post subject:

DYKJ · Not So Newbie Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 9

the Holy Spirit is a Person rather than merely an influence or invisible force or substance. Possessing the traits of personality make the Holy Spirit the personal, divine Companion of the child of God.

Masculine personal pronouns are used or, and applied to , the Holy Spirit. - John 15:26; John 16:7-8, 13-14
Personal characteristics are ascribed to the Holy Spirit.

- Intelligence - 1 Corinthians 2:10-11; Romans 8:27

- Will - 1 Corinthians 12:11

- Love - Romans 15:30

- Goodness - Nehemiah 9:20

- Grief - Ephesians 4:30
Personal acts are ascribed to the Holy Spirit.

- Speak - Revelation 2:7

- Teaches - John 14:26

- Leads and Guides - Romans 8:14
Relation to the Godhead

The characteristics of deity are also found in the Holy Spirit. He is associated with the other members of the Godhead. He is one with God, one in the Godhead, coequal, co-eternal with the Father and the Son.

Matthew 28:19; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 13:14

He is called God - Acts 5:3-4
He is called Lord - 2 Corinthians 3:18
He holds attributes that belong to God

- Eternal - Hebrews 9:14

- Omnipresent - Psalm 139:7-10

- Omnipotent - Luke 1:35

- Omniscient - 1 Corinthians 2:10-11

- Imparts life - Romans 8:11

- Author of divine prophecy - 2 Peter 1:21
In the Old Testament times the Holy Spirit was active, although in a different manner than He is seen in the New Testament light.

Creation - Genesis 1:2-3; Psalm 104:29-30; Job 33:4

Equipping men for special tasks - Exodus 35:30-34
It also seems evident that He came upon men rather than indwelling them, and this at specific times for a special purpose or work, and could also depart or be taken from them. There also seems to be an historical sequence implied in John 14:17. Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit being with the disciples during His ministry, and later - Pentecost - would indwell them.

Samson - Judges 14:19; Judges 16:20
Saul - 1 Samuel 16:14
David - Psalm 51:11
Ministry to Unbelievers

The Spirit's ministry to the unsaved is principally that of conviction. The conscience can convict the person of wrong doing, but the Spirit convicts of wrong being. The Spirit of God also holds back, restrains, from a course of evil and godlessness.

He strives with them - Genesis 6:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
He convicts the unbeliever - John 16:8-11

- of sin, because they believe not on Christ.

- of righteousness, the personal relationship of Christ indicated by His resurrection and ascension. This backs His claims as the only Savior, and brings about a realization of self-condemnation.

- of judgement, that satan has already been judged. This was accomplished at the cross. Because this is true all other judgements have been decided.
Ministry to Believers

The Holy Spirit's ministry to believers is intense and detailed. We must be careful, however, that we do not leave out the active ministry of all the Persons of the Trinity in the life of each believer. The Holy Spirit is the One who energizes and brings to completion that which has been done, making it personal and practical.

1. Regeneration - The act of regenerating, or new birth, is the imparting of the divine, new, nature of man. The Holy Spirit is the Divine Agent transmitting this new nature.

John 3:3-6;Titus 3:5
2. Baptism - Much confusion has resulted from a wrong concept of this aspect of the Spirit's ministry. Some would claim that it is an experience of the believer in addition, or subsequent, to salvation. They also claim that this is the time when the Spirit imparts His initial evidence, namely the gift of tongues. Some of these advocate that this is an experience that ought to be sought by every believer. We hold, however, that an honest evaluation of the Scripture shows that the baptism of the Spirit takes place at the time of conversion. It is the divine act whereby the believing individual is made a member of the body of Christ. This is true of every true believer.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Galations 3:27-28
3. Indwelling - At the time of regeneration, or salvation, the Spirit comes to take up His permanent abode in the believer. He abides there no matter how immature the person may be. It is this indwelling which makes growth possible.

1 Corinthians 6:15-19; 1 Corinthians 3:16;
Romans 8:9; Galatians 4:4-6
As a part of this indwelling ministry the Holy Spirit seals the believer, making him His own. This constitutes the down payment of the everlasting inheritance, the imprint of divine ownership.

Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30;
2 Corinthians 1:22
The Holy Spirit also gives assurance and confidence that we belong to Christ providing peace and rest.

Romans 8:14-16
The Holy Spirit, because He indwells the believer, strengthens the believer so that His power becomes operative in his life.

Ephesians 3:14
4. Filling - The contrast between the baptism of the Spirit and the filling of the Spirit is quite evident. Basically considered there is but one baptism whereas there are many fillings. Baptism unites us with the body of Christ, filing properly fits us for service. Baptism is an act of Christ while filling results from an action on the part of the believer. The realization of the filling of the Spirit and appropriates His power by faith.

Ephesians 5:18-20; John 7:37-39; 2 Corinthians 3:17-18:
Acts 4:8,31; Acts 6:3

The hindrances to filling are:

- grieving the Spirit - Ephesians 4:30

- quenching the Spirit - 1 Thessalonians 5:19
5. Liberating, Directing, Equipping - The believer can count on the ministry of the Spirit of God to so work in his life that the result can be a life that glorifies God. Having freed us, He now directs our lives into channel of effectiveness and equips us so that we can be effective.

Liberating - Romans 8:2
Directing - Romans 8:14; Acts 13:2,4; Acts 8:27-29
Equipping - 1 Corinthians 2:12-14; John 16:13,14; Acts 1:8; 1 Thessalonians 1:5
6. Fruit of the Spirit - The Holy Spirit produces all the real bounty of character and all the real Christ-likeness in the believer. Fruit here is the proper result of the controlling power of the Holy Spirit, the normal outflow of the Christ-life.

2 Corinthians 4:6-11
Spirit control will bring about a Christ-likeness in the normal every day processes. The following expressions in Scripture speak of common, day-to-day exercises.

Pray - Ephesians 6:18; Romans 8:26-27
Walk - Galatians 5:16
Led - Galatians 5:18
Live - Galatians 5:25
The fruit spoken of is basically a cluster with the main characteristic of love. Because the fruit expresses is a cluster, the believer who is controlled will be producing all the traits. Thus it is not one person producing love, another peace, etc. It is rather the degree, or consistency, with which the fruit is produced. The greater the Spirit's control the more evident the Christ-like characteristics. Galatians 5:22-23. A comparison of 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 and Galatians 5:22-23 can prove to be enlightening and profitable.

7 Gifts of the Spirit - The gifts of the Spirit have been emphasized strongly during the past number of years. One problem is evident - although claims are made that all the gifts are in operation today, some are grossly neglected while others are more eagerly promoted. The more spectacular gifts mentioned in the Word are not necessarily the most important. God is not bound to work the same way in each generation. God does not now act in judgement as He did in Acts 5 with Ananias and Sapphira. The gifts that were used in the founding days of the Church need not be as necessary now as they were in laying the foundation. By the same token, God can use or bestow what He desires and deems necessary for His own glory. One matter is much more important than gifts - that is spiritual maturity.

The gifts the Holy Spirit bestows are not a sign of greater maturity or deeper spirituality. They are divine enabling so as to edify the body of Christ. They are properly distributed so that all areas of need are met. It is evident that some gifts had greater purposes in the infancy of the Church and thus need not be as prominent today.

1 Corinthians 1:22; Isaiah 28:11; John 14:16-17;
Hebrews 2:3-4; 1 Corinthians 13:8-13
Several facts are imposed upon these gifts and the exercise of the same.

They are sovereignly distributed by the Holy Spirit and not chosen by the believer.
They are under Christ's direction because of His position as Head of the Church, not as man pleases.
The gifts receive their empowering for effective exercise from God, not as a result of man's effort or ability.
Some gift, or gifts, are given to every believer whether it is recognized or not.
The gifts are given for the ministry of the body and it's function and not for mere personal gratification or nurture.
Spirituality or maturity are not a sign, or the result, of the possession or exercise of a gift. There can be carnality in the midst of a display of spiritual gifts.
The following portions of the Word are the main sections dealing with the gifts of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12,13,14; Romans 12:1-8;
Ephesians 4:1-16; 1 Peter 4:10-11

larryjf · Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 8:34 am Post subject:

metothezero,

There is much evidence to support 1 Jn 5:7

1) 200AD - Tertullian quotes the verse (Gill, "An exposition of the NT", Vol 2, pp. 907-8 )
2) 250AD - Cyprian, who writes, "And again concerning the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'and the Three are One'" (Vienna, vol. iii, p. 215)
3) 350AD - Priscillian cites the verse (Vienna, vol. xviii, p. 6)
4) 350AD - Idacius Clarus cites the verse (MPL, vol. 62, col. 359)
5) 350AD - Athanasius cites the verse (Gill)
6) 415AD - Council of Carthage appeals to the verse as a basic text proving a fundamental doctrine when contending with the Arians (Ruckman, "History of the NT Church", Vol. I, p. 146)
7) 450-530AD - several orthodox African writers quote the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
Vigilius Tapensis (MPL, vol. 62, col. 243)
Victor Vitensis (Vienna, vol. vii, p. 60)
Fulgentius (MPL, vol. 65, col. 500)
8 ) 500AD - Cassiodorus cites the verse (MPL, vol. 70, col. 1373)
9) 550AD - Old Latin ms r has the verse
10) 550AD - The "Speculum" contains the verse
11) 750AD - Wianburgensis cites the verse
12) 800AD - Jerome's Vulgate includes the verse
13) 1150AD - minuscule ms 88 in the margin
14) 1200-1400AD - Waldensian Bibles have the verse
15) 1500AD - ms 61 has the verse
16) various witnesses cited in Nestle's 26th edition for a replacement of the text as it stands with the Comma: 221 v.l.;2318 vg(cl); 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r; and other important Latin mss.

These dates going back to 200 clearly pass the test for "antiquity".

Since the above stated witnesses vary geographically from North Africa to Italy to Asia, and vary in source from Fathers to versions to mss, the text passes the test for "variety of witnesses" also.

By examining the given list of witnesses, it is seen that the continuity is most pronounced, in that the reading appears consistently throughout history from 200 AD to 1500 AD - passing the test of "continuity".

Among the witnesses listed, Tertullian, Cyprian, Athanasius, the orthodox African writers, and the Waldensian Bibles would stand out as respectable to most objective critics, and some of the Latin as well - Passing the test of "respectability".

all of the above stated witnesses in ms form exhibit unsullied integrity in these first few verses of 1 John 5 - passing the test of "evidence of the entire passage".

If we leave the verse as it stands in most Greek texts, we are given "witnesses" (hoy marturountes) in verse 7 which are masculine, with three neuter nouns in verse 8 (to pneuma kai to hudor kai to aima), which are then said to agree as one. In other words, by the rule of Greek syntax known as the "power of attraction" which says that the masculines among a group control the gender of a neuter connected with that group, we are given three masculine witnesses which are supposed to agree as one neuter witness. This is a grammatical impossibility. The genders don't match.
On the basis of internal considerations the inclusion of the text is a must in order to avoid violating basic Greek grammar - passing the test of "internal considerations".

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

What fascinates me, is the fact Jesus never claimed to be God, others did.
Why would Jesus, if he was also God, go up on the mount to pray to God, and say, something to the effect, your will be done, even though it is not my will. This about the coming imprisonment, and later crucifiction. Or is it that God suffers from schizophrenia, and have multiple personalities that don't work as one?

Jesus never claimed to be God, only a messenger of God, why are you trying to make him, what he never said he was?

Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.”

Van · Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 9:32 am Post subject: 1 John 5:7

I take it that the following "There are three which bear witness, the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one" cannot be written in Greek?

Here is a copy and paste from a commentary by a scholar:
The only Greek manuscripts in any form which support the words, "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one; and there are three that bear witness in earth," are the Montfortianus of Dublin, copied evidently from the modern Latin Vulgate; the Ravianus, copied from the Complutensian Polyglot; a manuscript at Naples, with the words added in the Margin by a recent hand; Ottobonianus, 298, of the fifteenth century, the Greek of which is a mere translation of the accompanying Latin. All the old versions omit the words. The oldest manuscripts of the Vulgate omit them: the earliest Vulgate manuscript which has them being Wizanburgensis, 99, of the eighth century. A scholium quoted in Matthaei, shows that the words did not arise from fraud; for in the words, in all Greek manuscripts "there are three that bear record," as the Scholiast notices, the word "three" is masculine, because the three things (the Spirit, the water, and the blood) are SYMBOLS OF THE TRINITY. To this CYPRIAN, 196, also refers, "Of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it is written, 'And these three are one' (a unity)." There must be some mystical truth implied in using "three" (Greek) in the masculine, though the antecedents, "Spirit, water, and blood," are neuter. That THE TRINITY was the truth meant is a natural inference: the triad specified pointing to a still Higher Trinity; as is plain also from 1Jo 5:9 , "the witness of GOD," referring to the Trinity alluded to in the Spirit, water, and blood. It was therefore first written as a marginal comment to complete the sense of the text, and then, as early at least as the eighth century, was introduced into the text of the Latin Vulgate. The testimony, however, could only be borne on earth to men, not in heaven. The marginal comment, therefore, that inserted "in heaven," was inappropriate. It is on earth that the context evidently requires the witness of the three, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, to be borne: mystically setting forth the divine triune witnesses, the Father, the Spirit, and the Son. LUECKE notices as internal evidence against the words, John never uses "the Father" and "the Word" as correlates, but, like other New Testament writers, associates "the Son" with "the Father," and always refers "the Word" to "God" as its correlate, not "the Father." Vigilius, at the end of the fifth century, is the first who quotes the disputed words as in the text; but no Greek manuscript earlier than the fifteenth is extant with them. The term "Trinity" occurs first in the third century in TERTULLIAN [Against Praxeas, 3].

metothezero · Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 10:42 am Post subject:

1 John 5:7, One reason that I think needs to be answered, and this is a novice asking, why would John use such a different construct when speaking of the Holy Spirit here than he does in every other place he mentions Him??

to agion pneuma

whereas in other places he usually says

pneumati agio John 1:33

pneuma to agion John 14:26

pneuma agion John 20:22

He normally does not write as agio pneuma but rather pneuma agion...

There are more yet I am not at my home computer, I will respond later!
_________________
The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike.
C. S. Lewis

Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall.

larryjf · Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 12:22 pm Post subject:

Fake,

I believe that Jesus is God AND man.

It seems like your arguments that try and show Jesus is not God because He prayed are conveniently leaving out the fact that He was a man. Your argument focuses on His Godhood and neglects His manhood.

Most that i know who believe in the Trinity believe Jesus to be God and man. So you should keep that in mind when trying to argue the point. As a man, He prayed.

larryjf · Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 12:52 pm Post subject:

Fake,

From NASB...

If Jesus is not God, how can He be worshiped?

Mat 28:9 - And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

Mat 28:17 - When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

Heb 1:6 - And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

How can He be called God?

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus

Heb 1:8 - But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

2 Pet 1:1 - Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Phillipians 2:6 - (Christ Jesus), who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped

How can He be prayed to?

Act 7:59 - They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"

He also uses the title only used by God "First and Last"...

Rev 1:17-18 - When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

As far as Jesus Himself claiming Diety...

Jn 14:9 - Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

larryjf · Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 12:54 pm Post subject:

metothezero,

do you think maybe the reason the words are switched in order for the Holy Spirit is because in 1 Jn 5:7 it is speaking of Him from Heaven. It seems that the other verses are speaking about Him being here as our Helper, us being baptized in Him here, or Him teaching us here. Maybe the reason for the shift in words is because of the shift in place?

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

I believe each of you go through the NT in search of verses that back up what you want to believe or what the church teaches. I John chapter 5 says, Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten of God. Now, everyone who loves the father loves the child he has begotten. We can be sure that we love God's children when we love God and do what he has commanded. The love of God consists in this: that we keep his commandments-- and his commandments are not burdensome. Everyone begotten of God conquers the world, and the power that has conquered the world is this faith of ours. Who, ten is conqueror of the world? The one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus Christ it is who came through water and blood--not in water only, bvut in water and in blood. It is the Spirit who testifies to this, ant the Spirit is truth.
7 Thus there are three that testify, the Spirit and the water and the blood--and these three are of one accord.
This verse states emphatically that we keep God's commandments
Exodus 20 I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for your fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commanments.
Those of you who believe Jesus Christ is the God who brough us out of slavery in Egypt are looking for a great deal of problems. I suggest you start to understand that we are not speaking of a myth here. God is not dead and He is watching us. He is a jealous God, who brought in armies to destroy those who disobeyed him. Open your eyes, take a long look around. Be carefull.

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862