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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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 Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | DBB is continuing to assert her right to flame, trolled and belittle her opponents. This is clearly against the rules, why is she allowed the behavior. She implies her opponents are homophobic. See says we are ignorant. That we are bigoted. RevJp, Why is this behavior tolerated?
Here is just one example from a recent post:
| DBB wrote: | | Your choice of words, specifically, "caught", "nasty", and "habit", ooze your ignorance, and bigotry on this topic. The truth is no one who exercises a capacity to love is in any "caught"; stating a value judgement toward one's sexual activities (which you misunderstand as elevated in importance, as if all most LGBT people do is make the beast with two backs) reveals your own prurient interests and exercise of voyeurism to comment thus; and to describe physical love as a "habit" is, well, just plain pathetic. |
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It appears the oerators of this program are permitting free exchange of views. I apologize for excess, but I see none in what you quoted.
It's not name-calling, merely describing what you're doing. Of course you're bigoted and homophobic, but so are so many. Other than that you're probably a pretty nice guy. Probably in 20 years or less you'll change.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | As for this: | Quote: | | DBB is continuing to assert her right to flame, trolled and belittle her opponents. This is clearly against the rules, why is she allowed the behavior. She implies her opponents are homophobic. See says we are ignorant. That we are bigoted. RevJp, Why is this behavior tolerated? |
I will reassert that I will not go about shutting down everyone who get's heated in their debates. DBB is not trolling, she is not flaming. Yes she is casting about some inciteful implications and some rather demeaning accusations, and you can see that I have addressed this with her in my posts.
She is, at the moment, expressing her anger, hurt, and fears |
As are you, Van, and others...
| Quote: | and I fully expect her to recognize the lengths she has gone to, and correct herself accordingly, as i know her well enough from this board to beleive she is not intending to hurt, or belittle anyone.
I have addressed her rhetoric just as I have yours, and i have shut neither of you down although both of you have used hurtful and inciteful language copiously.
Bottom line? everyone needs to debate the issue not the people and everyone needs to show a little understanding and patience - and self-restraint. |
Fair enough. You are probably also a pretty nice guy in real life too.
My Dad used to make joint appearances with a Christian Coalition guy over this and other culture war issues and he insisted his debate opponent was "really a nice guy" though as a teenager I had my doubts.
I liked the remark of the woman in the prayer serice following the trial of Rev. Karen Dammann in Seattle (lesbian minister acquitted of misconduct, see other post this board). The minister of the church where the trial was held asked people to pray silently and then asked if any wished to voice their thoughts. She said "I pray for our church, and for those who are rejoicing as well as for those who are moaning and gnashing their teeth." So should we all.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | Take all those boys abused by the priests. Did they engage in homosexual activity? Yes. We they born gay. Probably not. They were the victims of abuse. But I think a followup study might show a disproportionate number of them will adopt a gay lifestyle. |
Good point, but if you are suggesting the abuse "made" the boys gay, that's unlikely. What is more likely is gay youth are more likely to be abused. Conservatives like to cite the case of the murder of 13-year-old Jesse Dirkhising of Arkansas by two predators who were gay men (as if to show media bias, as his murder happened about the same time as Matthew Sheppard's) but, have you ever seen a photo of Jesse Dirkhising? He was a chubby, touseled-haired Southern boy wearing a homemade necklace in the photo Newsweek carried, looking every bit the light-in-the-loafers type.
People like James Dobson exploit the correlation between child abuse and sexual orientation, but to suggest the former causes the latter is absurd. For they say it is true for both gay men and lesbians abused by adult men as children. If that were so, it would show the response of these individuals to premature exposure to sex is oppositte by gender-males embracing and females rejecting it, begging the question of which gender is the stronger.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I do not believe boys are abused because they were asking for it, nor to I believe girls are raped because they were asking for it. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | What is a bi-sexual? Someone who can go either way? Or someone who goes either way, that has relations simultaneouly or serially with people of one sex and then the other. |
It can be any of your descriptions, or other things as well. Kinsey established a continuum of sexual orientation with most people exclusively heterosexual, a small number exclusively homosexual, and a substantial number at varying degrees in between.
Just like most women are not attracted to most men and vice versa, most gays are not attracted to every other gay and most bis are not attracted to "anything that moves". The late poet-activist Allan Ginsberg was in a long term relationship with poet Peter Orlavsky but occasionally he had affairs with young women in the "hippie" community (I've seen pictures from when my parents were young. The free love surprises me less than the fact more of them didn't get gangrene from running around barefooted).
Patricia Ireland, the former head of NOW and the YWCA is married to a guy but also has an ongoing relationship with a woman. I think they were best friends when they were airline stewardesses together or something. That's a dual relationship that's decades old.
There's two vastly different examples probably not too valid since it's celebrities, but there's less known about bis than homos, lesbos, or trannys.
| Quote: | | Clearly these people have a choice in the behavior whether or not in their attraction. |
I won't comment since I disapprove of polyamory, but, I wouldn't judge them either.
| Quote: | | How do homosexual men have children? |
Regular sex with women, mostly ex-wives, partying with lesbians or artificially inseminating them (or heterosexual female friends like on Will and Grace, adoption, fostering, or mentoring.
| Quote: | | Does that not indicate if the children are biological children they can go both ways and therefore are bi sexual to some degree? |
For some, but most just call the earlier heterosexual relationships "mistakes".
| Quote: | | The whole view - you are a homosexual, you are a heterosexual is bogus; we are people with a range of sexual preferences and an ability to engage or obstain from sexual activities condemned in the Bible. |
The ancient Hebrews actually had good reason to proscribe non procreative sex-they needed to increase their population for wars with their powerful neighbors. These days we should encourage people to reporduce at below replacement value (2 children per couple) to preserve scarce resources.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | DBB: | Quote: | | Most people who bash homosexuals really haven't thought out their position, they just intrinsically, emotionally feel 'well, it's just wrong' so they grasp a handful of Bible verses out of context to justify their behavior. |
Granted, there are many who speak against homosexuality without thought to the why's or the wherefor's, but you speak of grasping at a 'handful of bible verses out of context', how so? Show us how we have taken a verse that specifically expresses homosexuality as a sin, out of context. |
All of the usual passages in Leviticus, Romans, Corinthians, and Jude refer to either ancient Holiness codes or Roman orgaism and have no application to loving same gender relationships of today.
| Quote: | | Show us where scripture contravenes itself in establishing homosexual activity as a sin. |
Not sure what that means.
| Quote: | | Being gay is not a sin, engaging in homosexual activity is. There is no way to dispute the truth of that, unless of course you choose to ignore or reject the Word of God, in which case it doesn't matter for your soul is lost to the Lord anyway. |
God is silent on the issue.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | I assert that the degree of SSA (same sex attraction) can be shift by therapy...some people who engage in homosexual activity can have there SSA shifted more toward heterosexual attraction. |
Van, a few years back the Religious Right made a poster couple of this ex-drag queen, John Paulk, married to an ex-lesbian, Ann Paulk, to show how this could happen. It was pretty bizarre, this little queen married to this big butch. They had 3 kids. Ann wrote a book I found at Berean blaming her being a *Female with a Nice Mullet* on her Daddy didn't love her enough, waa waa. John was working for Family Research Council, Gary Bauer's old outfit. He was spotted by some guys in a gay bar in D.C They said "You're John Paulk." At first he denied it then he admitted it. He told his patrons he had just stopped in to use the men's room but he could have gone at the Kentucky Fried Chicken across the street. After that they transferred him to Focus on the Family in Colorado Springs and he since retired. I suspect a patron bought them a little farm so Ann can keep an eye on John far from the bars.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | JP Quote:
Show us where scripture contravenes itself in establishing homosexual activity as a sin.
DBB:
Not sure what that means. |
Really? what do you not understand? Show us where the bible contradicts itself in establishing homosexuality as a sin. Scriptures clearly list homosexuality as a sin, you say it is not. Show us where there is a conflict.
| Quote: | | All of the usual passages in Leviticus, Romans, Corinthians, and Jude refer to either ancient Holiness codes or Roman orgaism and have no application to loving same gender relationships of today |
All the usual passages refer to homosexuality. Nowhere does it refer to any codes or anything other 'justification'. The passages are pretty clear in that they list homosexual activity (man laying with a man as he would a woman, etc.) as a sin.
| Quote: | JP Quote:
Being gay is not a sin, engaging in homosexual activity is. There is no way to dispute the truth of that, unless of course you choose to ignore or reject the Word of God, in which case it doesn't matter for your soul is lost to the Lord anyway.
DBB:
God is silent on the issue |
God certainly is NOT silent on the issue. Are you being deliberately obtuse or just adamant in your denial of the truth? God's Word specifically and clearly lists homosexual activity as a sin, what specifically would be silent about that?
| Quote: | RevJP wrote:
Man's nature is corrupted and as such his orientation is corrupted allowing things like homosexual orientation, alcoholism or other addictive tendencies, proneness to excessive anger, compulsive behaviors, obsessive behaviors, etc., etc., etc.
DBB:
I was wondering when someone was going to get around to offering forth the Trent Lott theory.
The problem is that to love someone of the same gender is not a destructive, negative force like the things you compare it to, though bigotry is. |
I know not of Trent Lott's theory's, I am merely speaking from what scripture tells us. Additionally, the problem as you describe it is not even close to what I am talking about. I am discussing homosexual activity, your attempts to try to insert 'love' in there as justification for sin will not stand the test of scriptural scrutiny.
DBB:
| Quote: | | Again you reveal your ignorance of human sexuality 101. There is absolutely no sin in gay love whatsoever. |
You reveal your ignorance as well. Sin and sexuality 101? an interesting dichotomy, since what you are referring to is a construct of man and man's wisdom and sin is a scriptural concept. Additionally, I will point out that you again are trying to divert attention from the subject of homosexual activity as a sin by inserting concepts of love. Loving someone is not the issue here, having sex with a member of the same sex is.
DBB: | Quote: | | Very good argument in support of gay marriage and civil union and performing of same gender Holy Union Ceremonies in Churches there! |
Hardly. Civil unions do not constitute a sanctified marriage - and I have not argued against them, in fact the opposite is true.
The bible teaches that marriage is to be a permanent relationship of one man and one woman freely and totally committed to each other and companions for life. Our Lord declared that man shall leave his father and mother and unite with his wife in the building of a home, and the two shall become one flesh.
There is no provision for a sanctified joining of two women, or two men, in scripture. If the state chooses to allow homosexual couples to unite under civil law, more power to them and I have no problems with that.
| Quote: | JP Quote:
Heck yes it is a habit, and a sin, and expressly described as a sin in scripture.
DBB:
Wrong. The Bible is entirely silent on the issue of same gender love. And as usual you reveal your ignorance of the dynamics of romance. |
Once again you try and twist the topic to something that it is not. I am speaking of homosexual activity, you must be able to grasp that by now.
| Quote: | JP Quote:
Should homosexuals live a celibate life to avoid sin? Yeah. just as single men and women should.
DBB:
And when they find the "one", they should marry him or her, and such should be permitted in all jurisdictions and by all churches. Thanks again for a cogent argument in favor of same gender unions! |
Are you the only one who cannot see the absolute dishonesty and blatant twisting of the truth in what you post?
I was going to continue on and answer each one of your snippets, but the more I read them the more I realized that I am speaking to someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the truth of scripture and who is so enamored of her own position in contravention to scripture that re-expressing God's truth would do little good. God's Word is clear, and to deny it is to deny His truth and Grace. You seem intelligent enough to understand that and I will leave it at that.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | DBB wrote: | | Show us where scripture contravenes itself in establishing homosexual activity as a sin. |
Not sure what that means. |
| JP wrote: | | Really? what do you not understand? Show us where the bible contradicts itself in establishing homosexuality as a sin. Scriptures clearly list homosexuality as a sin, you say it is not. Show us where there is a conflict. |
I didn't say there was a conflict, I said it doesn't "establish homosexuality as a sin."
| DBB wrote: | | All of the usual passages in Leviticus, Romans, Corinthians, and Jude refer to either ancient Holiness codes or Roman orgaism and have no application to loving same gender relationships of today |
| JP wrote: | | All the usual passages refer to homosexuality. Nowhere does it refer to any codes or anything other 'justification'. The passages are pretty clear in that they list homosexual activity (man laying with a man as he would a woman, etc.) as a sin. |
A lot of theologians disagree with that. I don't believe it is, either.
| JP wrote: | | Being gay is not a sin, engaging in homosexual activity is. There is no way to dispute the truth of that, unless of course you choose to ignore or reject the Word of God, in which case it doesn't matter for your soul is lost to the Lord anyway. |
| DBB wrote: | | God is silent on the issue |
| JP wrote: | | God certainly is NOT silent on the issue. Are you being deliberately obtuse or just adamant in your denial of the truth? God's Word specifically and clearly lists homosexual activity as a sin, what specifically would be silent about that? |
What Leviticus and Paul tell us is what the Hebrews of that time believed, not what God believes.
| RevJP wrote: | | Man's nature is corrupted and as such his orientation is corrupted allowing things like homosexual orientation, alcoholism or other addictive tendencies, proneness to excessive anger, compulsive behaviors, obsessive behaviors, etc., etc., etc. |
[quote="DBB"]I was wondering when someone was going to get around to offering forth the Trent Lott theory.
The problem is that to love someone of the same gender is not a destructive, negative force like the things you compare it to, though bigotry is. [quote/]
| JP wrote: | | I know not of Trent Lott's theory's, I am merely speaking from what scripture tells us. Additionally, the problem as you describe it is not even close to what I am talking about. I am discussing homosexual activity, your attempts to try to insert 'love' in there as justification for sin will not stand the test of scriptural scrutiny. |
I respectfully disagree.
| DBB wrote: | | Again you reveal your ignorance of human sexuality 101. There is absolutely no sin in gay love whatsoever. |
| JP wrote: | | You reveal your ignorance as well. Sin and sexuality 101? an interesting dichotomy, since what you are referring to is a construct of man and man's wisdom and sin is a scriptural concept. |
Which is another form of human construct.
| JP wrote: | | Additionally, I will point out that you again are trying to divert attention from the subject of homosexual activity as a sin by inserting concepts of love. Loving someone is not the issue here, having sex with a member of the same sex is. |
Well, of course if people are in love they're going to do what they do physically, but that's no one's business but their own.
| DBB wrote: | | Very good argument in support of gay marriage and civil union and performing of same gender Holy Union Ceremonies in Churches there! |
| JP wrote: | Hardly. Civil unions do not constitute a sanctified marriage - and I have not argued against them, in fact the opposite is true.
The bible teaches that marriage is to be a permanent relationship of one man and one woman freely and totally committed to each other and companions for life. |
This was what ancient Hebrews believed. we are in no sense bound by the limitations of the experiences of a primitive people.
| JP wrote: | | Our Lord declared that man shall leave his father and mother and unite with his wife in the building of a home, and the two shall become one flesh. |
That wasn't God, that was Hebrew patriarchs.
| JP wrote: | | There is no provision for a sanctified joining of two women, or two men, in scripture. |
So? There's no specs for a computer, either, but you're using one.
| JP wrote: | | If the state chooses to allow homosexual couples to unite under civil law, more power to them and I have no problems with that. |
Wonderful, we agree.
| JP wrote: | | Heck yes it is a habit, and a sin, and expressly described as a sin in scripture. |
| DBB wrote: | | Wrong. The Bible is entirely silent on the issue of same gender love. And as usual you reveal your ignorance of the dynamics of romance. |
| JP wrote: | | Once again you try and twist the topic to something that it is not. I am speaking of homosexual activity, you must be able to grasp that by now. |
...he said with bacon on his breath and wearing a mixed polyester/cotton shirt, oblivious to the irony...
| JP wrote: | | Should homosexuals live a celibate life to avoid sin? Yeah. just as single men and women should. |
| DBB wrote: | | And when they find the "one", they should marry him or her, and such should be permitted in all jurisdictions and by all churches. Thanks again for a cogent argument in favor of same gender unions! |
| JP wrote: | | Are you the only one who cannot see the absolute dishonesty and blatant twisting of the truth in what you post? |
Well, when you violate the rules with comments like that, I won't answer.
| JP wrote: | | I was going to continue on and answer each one of your snippets, but the more I read them the more I realized that I am speaking to someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the truth of scripture and who is so enamored of her own position in contravention to scripture that re-expressing God's truth would do little good. God's Word is clear, and to deny it is to deny His truth and Grace. You seem intelligent enough to understand that and I will leave it at that. |
Only a small subset of Christians claim to take the Bible literally.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3314
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Only a small subset of Christians claim to take the Bible literally |
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Well, there's the answer. Nine pages of arguing the bible with someone who doesn't believe in it. 
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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I figured that out the hard way, too... 
_________________
Peace
The HeKkLeR |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:21 am Post subject: |
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_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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