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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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 Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Yes, I understand this, I used it quite often myself whenever scripture did not agree with something I thought or felt. Now, however, I've confirmed my belief in scripture above all, so-called 'wisdom' of man, and put my trust in the Word of God, not the wishes of man. |
Too bad you didn't follow it up.
I have used the analogy before: the Bible is very much like a roadmap. Just as you can't trace out your route on a map and then claim you've made the trip, so you can't read the Bible and claim much more than having gained some insight into where the journey might take you. But you haven't actually gone anywhere.
I'm sure someday you will, and I'll be cheering you on...
8)
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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:27 am Post subject: |
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After reading this thread from the beginning, two thoughts come to mind:
1) It is a pointless exercise to engage in a discussion in which the parties do not even agree on the validity of the source material. We can never point out the accuracy of Scripture to those that hold it to be inaccurate.
2) The idea of something being natural is part and partial to being right and acceptable to God. List natural tendancies- lust, greed, envy, jealousy,etc. These are natural behaviors, aren't they. 
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"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:11 am Post subject: |
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[quote="RevJP"] | Quote: | | Man tells us that it is natural, God tells us that our nature is corrupt. Man exchanged God for corruption and God's truth for his own lies. Those are the facts, the 'extenuating circumstances' are irrelevant because the corruption of our nature is the extenuating circumstance. |
I agree human nature is corrupt, however, not that the capacity to love another in a different form from the majority is a form of that corruption.
It seems the emphasis of this point by fundamentalists, though, presents us with a double bind: we are corrupt, but they, the fundamentalists, are also just as corrupt if not more so than we are-so, therefore, we are under no obligation to accept any sort of authority they seek to impose on the rest of us, both Christian non-fundamentalists and Non-christians of all types.
If God is a God of Love as we are told, He cannot want this point emphasized as fundamentalists are so anxious to do except concerning themselves.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | After reading this thread from the beginning, two thoughts come to mind:
1) It is a pointless exercise to engage in a discussion in which the parties do not even agree on the validity of the source material. We can never point out the accuracy of Scripture to those that hold it to be inaccurate. |
Indeed, and you have hit the nail on the head as to the reason for cross-talking between fundamentalists and non-fundamentalists. However, my personal belief is those who claim the Bible is 100% accurate and authoritative is that they are only conveniently fooling themselves and trying to fool everyone else, because no sane person believes that, and instead they only claim the bible is thus to confirm their already held beliefs including, on this issue for one, prejudices. Consider, for example, this oft-circulated missive:
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
----obviously it distorts-but no more than the emotional attachment bigots have to passages that allude to homosexuality somewhat, to justify their bad behavior.
| Quote: | | 2) The idea of something being natural is part and partial to being right and acceptable to God. List natural tendancies- lust, greed, envy, jealousy,etc. These are natural behaviors, aren't they. |
The linking of a capacity to love with bad behaviors is offensive and inappropriate.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: |
If God is a God of Love as we are told, He cannot want this point emphasized as fundamentalists are so anxious to do except concerning themselves. |
I think the part of the nature of God that liberalists (if that is even a word, but meaning the opposite of the label fundamentalist  ) is that equally with His total nature of love is also His nature of being a just God.
One cannot dismiss one in lue of the other. Often people grasp onto the love without acnowledging the justice of God. Being a God of love should not be construed as "anything goes because He is a God of love" especially so when His Word speaks to the issue here at hand so directly.
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"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I agree human nature is corrupt, however, not that the capacity to love another in a different form from the majority is a form of that corruption. |
You cannot agree that human nature is corrupt - as stated in scripture, and then make exceptions for the corrupt - as scripture makes not exceptions.
Either we are corrupt in our nature and subsequently everything that comes from us is equally corrupt, or we are not corrupt in our nature and subsequently the bible is a lie - that is the choice.
| Quote: | | It seems the emphasis of this point by fundamentalists, though, presents us with a double bind: we are corrupt, but they, the fundamentalists, are also just as corrupt if not more so than we are |
All are corrupt equally - at least according to scripture.
| Quote: | | so, therefore, we are under no obligation to accept any sort of authority they seek to impose on the rest of us, both Christian non-fundamentalists and Non-christians of all types. |
No one is asking you to accept any authority imposed upon you other than the authority of scripture - you cannot debate the truth of scripture and still claim to believe scripture - it is a lie in its most fundamental form to do that.
| Quote: | | If God is a God of Love as we are told, He cannot want this point emphasized as fundamentalists are so anxious to do except concerning themselves. |
I would remind you that pointing out the sins of others in no way diminishes our own. Just because they do something wrong does not give me license to do something wrong as well.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | Consider, for example, this oft-circulated missive: (...) |
Hah! I hadn't seen that before...Another time for laughing aloud!
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: |
If God is a God of Love as we are told, He cannot want this point emphasized as fundamentalists are so anxious to do except concerning themselves. |
I think the part of the nature of God that liberalists (if that is even a word, but meaning the opposite of the label fundamentalist ) is that equally with His total nature of love is also His nature of being a just God. |
Quite so, which provides an excellent argument in favor of the position that loving homosexual relationships are not at all against God's will: A just God would never ever create a small group of people with a different capacity to love than the vast majority, ridiculed and oppressed by that huge majority, and tell them: "Everyone else can have a soul mate of their own choosing toward which they have a physical bond, but you lot cannot ere ye defy me". No, a God who would do such a thing would not be just at all, and would not be worthy to worship whatsoever. Such an entity would merely be the biggest bully in the universe and of no interest to people of good will and character.
| Quote: | | One cannot dismiss one in lue of the other. Often people grasp onto the love without acnowledging the justice of God. Being a God of love should not be construed as "anything goes because He is a God of love" especially so when His Word speaks to the issue here at hand so directly. |
Once again you fail to make distinctions. To honor love of same gender spouses is not at all "anything goes".
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | I agree human nature is corrupt, however, not that the capacity to love another in a different form from the majority is a form of that corruption. |
You cannot agree that human nature is corrupt - as stated in scripture, and then make exceptions for the corrupt - as scripture makes not exceptions. |
I make no exception: I state categorically and directly that same gender love is not only not at all "corrupt" it is entirely morally equal to heterosexual marriage and exactly as Holy as that.
| Quote: | | Either we are corrupt in our nature and subsequently everything that comes from us is equally corrupt |
Ever hear the saying "God doesn't make junk"? This unfortunate method of fundamentalists-applied it seems to everyone but themselves-does not hold up. People are corrupt, yes, but they are good as well. It is the nature of duality of people. There is absolutely no absolute corruption to anyone.
| Quote: | | , or we are not corrupt in our nature and subsequently the bible is a lie - that is the choice. |
Fundamentalits like to posit things in absolutist either/or dichotomies that have no merit; the world is not black and white; there are considerable shades of gray. This is no exception.
[quote]so, therefore, we are under no obligation to accept any sort of authority they seek to impose on the rest of us, both Christian non-fundamentalists and Non-christians of all types. | Quote: | | No one is asking you to accept any authority imposed upon you other than the authority of scripture - you cannot debate the truth of scripture and still claim to believe scripture - it is a lie in its most fundamental form to do that. |
Mature Christians realize the Bible is not in any sense to be taken literally, so, this is merely a defense mechanism of fundamentalists to impose oppression on others and create an elevated status for themselves.
[quote]If God is a God of Love as we are told, He cannot want this point emphasized as fundamentalists are so anxious to do except concerning themselves. | Quote: | | I would remind you that pointing out the sins of others in no way diminishes our own. Just because they do something wrong does not give me license to do something wrong as well. |
The assumption you "know" someone else is sinning is offensive and inapppropriate. You are in no position whatosever to have any even slight ability to discern that in any form. Your proper task would be to look in the mirror before you look out the window, especially in the form of heaping oppression on already oppressed people. Shame.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ron wrote: | | Being a God of love should not be construed as "anything goes because He is a God of love" especially so when His Word speaks to the issue here at hand so directly. |
Didn't the Pharisees construct their arguments using similar logic?
8)
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Ron
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 27 Aug 2002
Posts: 750
Location: home, wa, usa
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Smilin' Jacks wrote: | | Ron wrote: | | Being a God of love should not be construed as "anything goes because He is a God of love" especially so when His Word speaks to the issue here at hand so directly. |
Didn't the Pharisees construct their arguments using similar logic? |
No, not really. They added to God's Word to fill their own laws, traditions of man. Remember when Jesus told them they follow traditions of man over the Word of God. I have not added anything to His Word, but rather point out the clarity in which He addressed this question.
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15
Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron
http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A just God would never ever create a small group of people with a different capacity to love than the vast majority, ridiculed and oppressed by that huge majority, and tell them: "Everyone else can have a soul mate of their own choosing toward which they have a physical bond, but you lot cannot ere ye defy me". No, a God who would do such a thing would not be just at all, and would not be worthy to worship whatsoever. |
and by whose authority do you decide what a 'just' God would or wouldn't do? His? God is not one to whom we can chant the saying of the day "We're *Man's Man* and we're here, so you better get used to it!" God, the God of the Scriptures is the one who makes the call on who He does or does not accept, He makes the call on behaviors or actions that He does or does not accept - not us.
Scripture tells us that adultery, lust, fornication, drunkenness, slander, hate, etc. are all sins - and we accept that, but you take 'homosexuality' out of the same scriptures, standing side by side with the other sins as a matter of fact, and say that this one thing that scripture speaks against is not from God, and only a construct, or misinterpretation of man? Where is the logic in that?
| Quote: | | Ever hear the saying "God doesn't make junk"? This unfortunate method of fundamentalists-applied it seems to everyone but themselves-does not hold up. People are corrupt, yes, but they are good as well. It is the nature of duality of people. There is absolutely no absolute corruption to anyone. |
A nice saying, but not scripture. God did not make junk in the begining, He made perfect humans, without sin, without blemish, without error. Man made the decision to disobey, and seperate himself from God. His fate from that point on was sealed. He had corrupted himself and his nature and the nature of all his decendents - that is scripture. People are corrupt at their very being, it is a fact of God's Word, and He gave them up to their corruption. Anything truly good in man comes from God, not himself.
| Quote: | | the world is not black and white; there are considerable shades of gray |
The world may be grey, but scripture is pretty black and white, it doesn't prevaricate or obfuscate - those are traits of men, not God.
| Quote: | | Mature Christians realize the Bible is not in any sense to be taken literally |
So mature Christians should understand that the four Gospels are all a story and the life of Christ was not real? Mature Christians are to understand that Jesus' commandments to 'Love your God with all your heart, mind, body and soul, and to love your brother as yourself' are not to be taken literally and are only a metaphor for something else?
| Quote: | | The assumption you "know" someone else is sinning is offensive and inapppropriate. You are in no position whatosever to have any even slight ability to discern that in any form. Your proper task would be to look in the mirror before you look out the window, especially in the form of heaping oppression on already oppressed people. Shame. |
I'm sorry, but if I see a person steal, I know they are sinning. If I hear a person lie, I know they are sinning. As Christians we are to judge fellow believers if they are living a life of sin. We are to confront them and encourage them in remedying their ways. As for the rest of the world - it is not our place to put judgements upon them for their actions, but to spread the good news of Christ.
I'm sorry if you come to a bible-discussion board and find posts that say that homosexuality is wrong and choose to feel that it is oppression.
I can only base my position on scripture. I have in the past been proven wrong through scripture (in fact this subject is one of the areas which I have had to change my way of thinking - because of the truth of scripture). Scripture says the very nature of man is corrupt. It follows logically that anything that eminates from man's nature would be corrupt - this includes religion as well as the 'nature of homosexuality'. I may not completely agree with positions of scripture in certain respects (women pastors or turning the other cheek, or committed, loving homosexual relationships) but I'm not given the choice to pick and choose what I want to beleive, if I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I have to accept what it says, understand it through study, prayer and meditation, and let the Holy Spirit lead me to illumination.
My nature is corrupt, and my understanding of God's plan is likely corrupt without the guidance of the Spirit. In this case the Spirit has guided me and I will rely on the wisdom of God's Word versus the desires of humanity.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:37 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Ron"] | Smilin' Jacks wrote: | Didn't the Pharisees construct their arguments using similar logic?
No, not really. They added to God's Word to fill their own laws, traditions of man. Remember when Jesus told them they follow traditions of man over the Word of God. I have not added anything to His Word, but rather point out the clarity in which He addressed this question. |
Our laws haven't? The Talmud the Pharisees studied is of a similar vein to our Magna Carta, the Constitution & Bill of Rights, and every other codified law in the land. Our "laws" are no different and they've added just as much (if not more) than was added to the Talmud.
8)
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:44 am Post subject: |
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[quote="RevJP"] | Quote: | | I'm sorry, but if I see a person steal, I know they are sinning. If I hear a person lie, I know they are sinning. |
And therein lies the 'sin' of judging...
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And therein lies the 'sin' of judging... |
Sorry, wrong answer. Recognizing sin is not judging, it is knowing sin.
The sin of judgement as espoused in scripture is based on this definition:
One who makes estimates as to worth, quality, or fitness
To recognize a sin is not to make an estimate of one's worth or fitness, which is the sin we speak of biblically. Those who tell us that we are not to 'judge' one another take the generic definition: To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration, and apply it to scripture. The bible is not speaking of making a sound and informed decision, it is speaking of judgement which leads to condemnation. It is not our place to make a judgement on someone's worth or fitness to gain God's glory, but we are welcome to recognize sin and strive not to fall into or lead others into that sin.
As for fellow believers, we are given much more responsibility in our determination of their fitness in their fellowship with the church. we are to rebuke and confront those who willingly and habitually sin. We can only do this if we are able to determine their sin, and if it is effecting our fellowship.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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