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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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 Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Jesus came to 'magnify the Law and make it honorable', (Isaiah 42:21). He showed how each, and every one of the commandments were to be kept, in body and spirit. |
I use netscape and so can't access all those little animatrons we see scattered about here. But if I could, I'd have two hands clapping in support of your post! Good one!! 8) |
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objectivist
German Shepherd
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Including the SABBATH!!!!!
AAAAHHHHHAAAAAHHHAAAA!!!!!!!    |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| SS wrote: | | Yes, Jesus Christ died for our 'past' sins, (Romans 3:25). He died the death, every person who hangs unto their sins, will face in the end. |
Yet when we look at the scripture you referred to, in context, it tells us much more than forgiveness of past sins, doesn't it?
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that [the murmurs and excuses of] every mouth may be hushed and all the world may be held accountable to God.
20 For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [[1] not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].21 But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,
22 Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
23 Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory [2] which God bestows and receives
24 [All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,.
25 Whom God put forward [[3] before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.
26 It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time ([4] in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus.
| Quote: | | As it is written: "Whosoever is born of God...does not ...commit sin", (1 John 3:9). |
As it is actually written:
5You know that He appeared in visible form and became Man to take away [upon Himself] sins, and in Him there is no sin [[4] essentially and forever].
6No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains [5] in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and [6] habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].
7[7] Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous.
8[But] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].
9No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [8] habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.
10By this it is made clear who take their nature from God and are His children and who take their nature from the devil and are his children: no one who does not practice righteousness [who does not conform to God's will in purpose, thought, and action] is of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother (his fellow [9] believer in Christ).
11For this is the message (the announcement) which you have heard from the first, that we should love one another
We could do this all day - again. You post partial scripture, leaving out the parts that do not fully comply with your salvation through works doctrine, and ignore the rest. Read and post the whole passage in context, and in concert with the entirety of scripture if you want to discuss the truth of scripture.
| Quote: | Absoluely correct !
#1.) The first 4 commandments, are our love for God.
#2.) The last 6 commandments, are our love for our fellow man.
THUS: 'Love is the fulfilling of the Law'. |
Which passage of scripture tells us this?
| Quote: | No person who committs any known sin....will ever be allowed into heaven.
God will never allow a disobedient person into having eternal life.....that was proved by Adam and Eve |
Habitually commits known sin and does not seek forgiveness - you forget that God also forgives. He knows you better than you do. He knows you will sin, you cannot help it, it is your corrupt nature. He allows forgiveness for the truly repentent. Without that nothing you do or say would matter because you will sin, period.
Okay, I have to come back to this later. Life takes precedent over rehashing this same false doctrine for the umpteenth time. |
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Bridget
Rattlesnake
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 443
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I think you are forgetting that the 10 commandments are not the only laws given to the Israelites. There were 613 laws that the Jews must follow, but as followers of Christ, we no longer follow. I believe these 613 laws are what is being discussed. The fact is we know the ten commandments, so when Jesus said to love God and love our neighbor we know what He meant. We know the commandments. In the future if we don't honor the ten commandments, which by the way our civil laws are based on, how will future generations know them? There is a lot of controversy here on the sabbath. We argue over meanings, yet when I read the newspaper I see so much horror right here in the good old USA. Everyday we hear of murder, of rape, of child molestors, drunkeness, robbery. We don't seem to be too concerned about the homeless, those who don't have jobs, women who are victimized and beaten by their husbands, today I saw that teens are becoming more and more brutal in their attacks on one another, and it goes on and on. When are we as Christians going to take the life of our country back. When are we going to have the courage that Jesus had and stand up for the good and not the evil. Talk is cheap guys. What are we going to DO! |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2587
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| objectivist wrote: | Including the SABBATH!!!!!
AAAAHHHHHAAAAAHHHAAAA!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :D :D :P |
It must be remembered that Satan goes to make war, on those who keep the commandments of God, (Revelation 12:17).
The Sabbath (4th commandment) is the 'sign' God has chosen, to identify His people, (Ezekiel 20:20). |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2587
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bridget wrote: | | I think you are forgetting that the 10 commandments are not the only laws given to the Israelites. |
I understand that point. My point is that Christ only wrote out 10 commandments on Mt. Sinai Himself, with his very own finger in stone talblets.(Exodus 31:18)......"and He added NO MORE", (Duet. 5:7-especially verse 22).
| Quote: | | . In the future if we don't honor the ten commandments, which by the way our civil laws are based on, how will future generations know them? |
GOOD POINT !
The Christians duty to their fellow man is to educate people qbout God's Law of Love...the 10 commandments. Which if observed, even in the physical sense, will reduce the pain and sufferings of millions of people around the world.
The Apostle Paul says: "We (Christians) establish the Law", (Romans 3:31. meaning that we as Christians are to show people around us that peace and harmony can only be attained to by and thru God Laws.
| Quote: | | There is a lot of controversy here on the sabbath. |
The Bible says that Satan, goes to WAR...against the people who keep God's commandments, (Revelation 12:17).
Because he knows if everyone were to keep the Law of God...there would be absolute peace among mankind. | Quote: | | We argue over meanings, yet when I read the newspaper I see so much horror right here in the good old USA. Everyday we hear of murder, of rape, of child molestors, drunkeness, robbery. We don't seem to be too concerned about the homeless, those who don't have jobs, women who are victimized and beaten by their husbands, today I saw that teens are becoming more and more brutal in their attacks on one another, and it goes on and on. When are we as Christians going to take the life of our country back. When are we going to have the courage that Jesus had and stand up for the good and not the evil. Talk is cheap guys. What are we going to DO! |
I don't know about you....but I'm doing something about the situation.....thru education. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2587
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | SS wrote: | #1.) The first 4 commandments, are our love for God.
#2.) The last 6 commandments, are our love for our fellow man.
Thus: 'Love is the fulfilling of the Law'. |
Which passage of scripture tells us this? |
When a person reads the Bible (carefully, and with an honest heart)....the 10 commandments of God (Exodus 20:3-17)...they will understand. |
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James1-26
Bear Cub
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 603
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | Thank you! metothezero, for getting us back on topic!
Rev. I believe that we should remember the Sabbath & keep it Holy!
I also know that to the Jew that the Saturday was the Sabbath to them. I am a Born Again Christian Gentile, & my Sabbath is on Sunday. I live under Jesus commandments The new Covenant tells me that I now am kept under God's grace .
Note: The reason for this forum was because this board was being flooded with this subject. If I see more of it, I want it to be on this forum! That is if it's the basic theme of the thread.
Nobby |
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
handwriting:
what one has written with ones own hand
Thayer's - metaphor applied to Col 2:14 to the Mosaic Law, which shows men to be chargeable with offences for which they must pay the penalty.
ordinances:
dogma 1) doctrine, decree, ordinance
a) of public decrees
b) of the Roman Senate
c) of rulers
2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living
against us:
Thayer's - as in an adversary |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3171
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | handwriting:
what one has written with ones own hand |
| Quote: | | 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; |
the ten commandments were written with God's own hand. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Someone help me out here:
God wrote the 10 commandments on stone tablets and gave them to Moses, who upon descending from the mountain, threw them down and broke them, yes?
Then moses went back and got them again - did God write those with His own hand or did He tell them to Moses who wrote them down? I cannot remember. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3171
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Exodus 34: 27 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words; for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. [28] And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."
I don't think it's actually made clear here who wrote on the second tablets. It has occurred to me recently that the breaking of the first tablets is symbolic of something (the Israelites future breaking of the covenant) but I haven't had a chance to pursue it in depth yet. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks Mojo, that helped. I was pretty sure that the second set of tablets was a dictation to Moses and not written by God's Own Hand. I'm wondering now if we can stop hearing that claim in this argument. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | I'm wondering now if we can stop hearing that claim in this argument. |
I doubt it. Our Surfin' friend will fall back on Deut 5:22
| Quote: | | 22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. |
In the last several days, in addition to being frightfully busy with other things, I haven't bothered responding to any of the Saturday Sabbath posts on this or the Viewpoints board lately, because I noticed that even when I clearly show where and how these posts are misinterpreting and twisting scripture, another post quoting the same out-of-context scriptures, misinterpreted the same way gets put up shortly thereafter.
Examples: I clearly showed how Romans 3:31 ("...we uphold the law") was being twisted to mean something entirely different from the writer's intended meaning, yet I still see it showing up in new posts trying to prove we all should take off from work and go to church on Saturday.
I have clearly shown where Romans 7:12 ("...the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good")was being pulled out of context and misused to prove a point the writer was not making, yet I still see it showing up in posts trying to prove God is going to judge us all by how well we kept the Big 10.
I've shown from 2 Cor 3 where the Big 10 are referred to as "to be abolished", and from Rom 7 where it specifically mentions one of the Big 10 and says we are to be dead to that law. These passages which conclusively refute this legalistic foolishness are ignored as posts claiming that we're all in danger of being destroyed for not going to church on Saturday keep getting put up.
Silver Surfer, if you have anything to say to this, feel free.
It becomes like listening to a skipping CD after a while. And while I don't mind hearing sound Biblical truth over and over, this Biblically untenable sloganeering is just so much graffiti scrawled on these message boards. It's not a discussion, because (mis)information is only being passed one way.
Now, back to the subject of Deut chapt 5, I just read through that chapter and found something that all of us, regardless which day we go to church should be aware of. After God gave the children of Israel the Big 10, "and added no more", He says to Moses in verse 31:
| Quote: | | 31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it. |
I think our Saturday Sabbath Celebratin' Siblings have been terribly misrepresenting God at best by claiming that He only gave 10 commandments and Moses or someone else came up with the other 600+. Apparently verse 31 is another one that's crossed out in the SDA Bible. Thankyou, Silver Surfer for directing my attention to that chapter. That was a blessing to me, brother!
How sad though, that an entire denomination is willing to flatly ignore so much of God's Word because the religious tradition that forms the foundation of their church is not supported in it.
No, though Biblically and conclusively refuted at every turn, the Saturday Sabbath Silliness continues.
| Mojo wrote: | | It has occurred to me recently that the breaking of the first tablets is symbolic of something (the Israelites future breaking of the covenant) but I haven't had a chance to pursue it in depth yet. |
Excellent point, Mojo. I think there's significance to that. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3171
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | noticed that even when I clearly show where and how these posts are misinterpreting and twisting scripture, another post quoting the same out-of-context scriptures, misinterpreted the same way gets put up shortly thereafter. |
I'm with you Zathrus. It appears hopeless. |
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Bridget
Rattlesnake
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 443
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Silver Surfer, I'm sorry but let's be realistic here. Since God commanded that only Moses was to be on the mountain when He was there, how did Jesus get there since He wasn't born yet. Yes I know your thought on this, that Jesus is God, well I hope you're right and I'm wrong because if you are blaspheming against God that's not a good thing. Also if you continue in Romans Chapter 3 and read the last sentence verse 31 Are we then abolishing the law by means of faith? Not at all! On the contrary we are confrming the law.
I think Paul is trying to tell us that although we are still under the law we are freed from the punishment of death on the occasion we may sin. So I will get off my soapbox now, even though most of the posts here are much longer then mine, I am critized because I don't believe in the teachings of any of the Christians denominations represented here. Why, because most do not agree with the scriptures or understand that the basis for our faith is Judaism that has only one God, the God of Israel. |
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