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objectivist
German Shepherd
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 335
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 Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Van said:
the godless left
You are living in a godless world van. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Or so you believe  |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | You know what amazes me about this board is if you say something is a sin, others will come up with a whole bunch of other things that are also as much a sin. Yes they are just as much a sin. But that's not the sin, that is the topic of the thread! |
Very good point Nobby and I fully acknowledge that I am one of those guilty of doing this. However, in defense of these perpetuators of this shameful act I must point out my reasons for doing so:
It is easier to seperate an activity or inclination of a person or a people and focus on it as a means of illiciting unity. Or as a means of building one's confidence in one's own righteousness (read self-righteousness).
Is it a biblical mandate to persecute homosexuals? Is it a biblical mandate for 'christians' to condemn homosexuality? No more so than it is a biblical mandate for 'christians to condemn or persecute those who lie, cheat, steal, slander, gossip, or treat one another badly.
It is just easier for them to pick out someone or something to tear down in order to maintain their own feeling of 'righteousness'
From Zathrus:
| Quote: | 1. Pointing out to someone that their behavior is wrong will not cause a change. This is definitely true relative to this area.
2. If God is concerned with anything, it is the heart, not the outer man.
3. If one's behavior is to change, it must be through a transformation within, not just straightening up your behavior (no pun intended), and we don't have the power to transform anyone from within, only the Holy Spirit does.
4. None of us straight people are perfect either. I think most of us just find homosexuality more repulsive than our own faults.
5. You can't use Romans 1 to say God disapproves of it, that's not the point of the passage. And laws from Leviticus were given to old covanent Israel, not the new covanent church.
Maybe the whole issue is a good opportunity for us to examine ourselves and realize how obsessed with the outer man we Christians still are. |
Do I pollute the thread when I point out the nature of sin and our relationship to it and it's condemnation? Perhaps, and for that I would apologize for I do not intend to sidetrack the threads. However, I see a greater danger in 'Christians' focusing on one aspect of humanity rather than the idea of sin itself. I see the building of self-righteousness, the underpinings of hatred manifesting itself, and the slow removal of the awareness of our own despicable state in the eyes of our Lord. I see the danger of convincing ourselves that we are righteous in the eyes of God whereas 'others' are not, and instead of reaching out and sharing the Gospel of Christ, we lash out and spread the message that they will burn in Hell forever if they don't change their ways. |
Thanks, very good post. |
Also: Rev JP: could you give the complete citation for Zathrus? Thanks. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | DBB, yet another direct personal attack on me. No content, nothing offered to refute anything, just the ol two wrongs make a right silliness of the godless left. Try addressing the topic.
Homosexual activity is wrong. It is being hidden by a smokescreen of ad hominems against anyone who speaks the truth. We are called homophobes, bigots, believers in the falsehoods of a bygone era, one name after another. Yet many if not most of the new HIV cases this year in America will be caused by homosexual activity, anal sex with multiple partners over time.
The Bible says we are not to make an accomodation with the lusts of the flesh, Christians are to restrict sexual activity to between a man and his female wife bonded in marriage before Christ.
And again, what you do is your business, but the Bible tells Christians that homosexual activity like all sexual activity outside of marriage between a man and a women is wrong. It is hypocritical to come to a Bible discussion forum and then push your false doctrine and then claim you are under attack. The premise is absurd. Liberals alway claim they are being attacked when they attack. But this is a Bible discussion forum, and I am simply presenting what I believe the bible says. And I will continue to the end of my days, no matter how many times I am clubbed by my "Christian" brothers and Sisters from the far left.
Others falsely assert I am attacking homosexuals. But no quote is offered for I try very hard to keep the focus on behavior, no different from my sinful behavior. Distortions and lies are the stock and trade of those advocating homosexual behavior. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | DBB, yet another direct personal attack on me. No content, nothing offered to refute anything, just the ol two wrongs make a right silliness of the godless left. Try addressing the topic.
Homosexual activity is wrong. It is being hidden by a smokescreen of ad hominems against anyone who speaks the truth. We are called homophobes, bigots, believers in the falsehoods of a bygone era, one name after another. Yet many if not most of the new HIV cases this year in America will be caused by homosexual activity, anal sex with multiple partners over time. |
That's a real non sequitur segue. You forgot to blame *Man's Man* for 9-11. Or is that next?
| Quote: | | The Bible says we are not to make an accomodation with the lusts of the flesh, Christians are to restrict sexual activity to between a man and his female wife bonded in marriage before Christ. |
Not specifically. And Christ's concern was never homosexuality, which he never addressed, but divorce. Yet churches which exclude LGBTs from the pews have no trouble accommodating the divorced and remarried-including some in clerical collars behind the pulpits.
And again, what you do is your business, but the Bible tells Christians that | Quote: | | homosexual activity like all sexual activity outside of marriage between a man and a women is wrong. |
Again, never quite as specifically as you wish it did.
| Quote: | | It is hypocritical to come to a Bible discussion forum and then push your false doctrine and then claim you are under attack. The premise is absurd. Liberals alway claim they are being attacked when they attack. But this is a Bible discussion forum, and I am simply presenting what I believe the bible says. And I will continue to the end of my days, no matter how many times I am clubbed by my "Christian" brothers and Sisters from the far left. |
To some fundamentalism is a false doctrine. It is certainly not any part of any longstanding church tradition. It was created in the late 19th Century out of thin air in response to Darwin by the timorous.
| Quote: | | Others falsely assert I am attacking homosexuals. But no quote is offered for I try very hard to keep the focus on behavior, no different from my sinful behavior. Distortions and lies are the stock and trade of those advocating homosexual behavior. |
Van if it is true then perhaps you could call Colin Powell about help for gay athletes coming to America from the third world for the gay games? As much as *Man's Man* have it bad here thanks to oppression from bigots, there to be a gay male is a felony and to be a lesbian is to be forcibly raped and married off. And of course if you are not attacking then of course you are fully supportive of gay marriage and support for LGBTs seeking child custody and freedom from discrimination in jobs, housing, and public accomodation? It is certainly appreciated. |
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objectivist
German Shepherd
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| van is a bigot. Call it what ever you want. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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I live in San Clemente, not too far from Laguna Beach. The large hospital for that area is called South Coast Hospital. Many young men from the community have spend their last terrible days in darken rooms with no flowers and no visitors. It is easy to sling words and heap shame but the consequences are heartwrenching.
Did you ever hold an "AIDs" baby without wearing protective plastic, hug them and rock them and cry over them? It is easy to sling words and heap shame but the consequences are heartwrenching.
Did you ever hold a baby from a racially mixed marriage and walk to the front of an all white chuch in the south and sit in front row with the baby's mother? It is easy to sling words and heap shame but the consequences are heartwrenching.
I never visited one of those rooms in South Coast, but my daughter did and held their hands without wearing plastic and told them it did not matter that they had AIDS, she was there to help. I held two AIDS babies from the same family in the nursery of our church, and rocked them and cryed over them. And I am not ashamed I faced down bigotry, real bigotry before it was the in thing.
You can call me names, but I shall carry my cross till the end of my days. |
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objectivist
German Shepherd
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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That's fine. You are not a bigot in one aspect but in others you are. That still makes you a bigot.
van said:
but I shall carry my cross till the end of my days.
As a bigot. |
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Smilin' Jacks
Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | Did you ever hold an "AIDs" baby without wearing protective plastic, hug them and rock them and cry over them? |
C'mon...Everybody knows that HIV, HepC, and a host of other killers are trasmitted by body fluids - commonly blood, semen, and saliva. You weren't risking much by holding the child...
| Quote: | | I never visited one of those rooms in South Coast |
Why not, Van? Wouldn't that be the Christian thing to do? I'm not condemning you for not going, just wondering why you didn't?
8) |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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I've let this go on about as long as I wish to. It seems all of us have ceased discussing the biblical aspects of homosexuality and have begun assaulting each other. These are some of the uglier comments in the past day:
| Quote: | van is a bigot. Call it what ever you want.
That's fine. You are not a bigot in one aspect but in others you are. That still makes you a bigot.
You forgot to blame *Man's Man* for 9-11. Or is that next? |
This is just a sample of the sludge we are slinging in this thread. I did not help with my posts regarding the rhetoric used in this discussion, and I take full responsibility for my participation in this pathetic example of 'civility'. So, without further ado, this thread is locked, and I will be minding my own P's and Q's, and keeping a closer watch on everyone else.
I enjoy a spirited and even heated debate, but no one here, can honestly tell me that this has turned into a sickening farce. |
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