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Adam_Love
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 414
Location: Walla Walla, WA
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 Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: The God Delusion |
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Has anybody here read Richard Dawkin's book 'The God Delusion'?
I'm about half way through.. Just wondering what you guys thought of it.. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1817
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I read it several months ago and highly recommend it, I thought iwas very good. I digested it slowly over several months and finally did skip the last sections - found the first 3/4 more interesting to me.
It seems like people are either Dawkins fans or really don't care for his writings - haven't seen many in between.
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Adam_Love
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 414
Location: Walla Walla, WA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Glad you liked it.
I think I am somewhere in between with Dawkins.
He is a good author, and he has a good way of explaining things. I just found the book to be too negative.
I was hoping the book would focus more on an actual belief in God, and how God could not possibly exist, and instead, he mainly focused on why he thought religion is evil.
I feel like I learned a lot form it, though. Just nothing that really changed my beliefs about God or religion. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1817
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Really? I found the book to be full of information and specifics.
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 613
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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I read the first chapter, so far.
I perceive that most atheists have rejected the idea of God, because they have rejected religion.
Then they build a religion around the idea of no God.
The way I see it, even God rejects religion, but most humans cling to it, in one form or another.
Most curious.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: | I perceive that most atheists have rejected the idea of God, because they have rejected religion.
Then they build a religion around the idea of no God. |
That's ... not really how it works.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8326
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: | I read the first chapter, so far.
I perceive that most atheists have rejected the idea of God, because they have rejected religion.
Then they build a religion around the idea of no God.
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This is an oxymoron. How can you have a religion without at least some kind of god or some mysticism?
The term 'atheist' is also a poor term. First of all, there shouldn't be a word to describe people who refuse to believe in religious entities based on insufficient evidence. We don't have words for describing non-astrologers or non-crystal channelers. Why should there even be a word for describing people who refuse to accept fantastical claims about deities which are completely devoid of evidence?
But secondly, to call someone an 'atheist' somehow suggests that this is an end in and of itself. I am not an atheist because I reject religion. I think I speak for a whole lot of atheists out there when I say that I am an atheist because first and foremost I am rational/logical/scientific. I require good reasons for believing things, and far-fetched things require the best reasons/evidence of all. Logic and reason and science demand that we reject all claims which are based on insufficient evidence, and especially so if the claims are fantastical.
So first and foremost I am a rational thinker who demands good reasons for believing things. I am not an atheist because I have rejected religion or God. I am an atheist because I demand rational reasons for believing things.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Adam_Love
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 414
Location: Walla Walla, WA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | | Really? I found the book to be full of information and specifics. |
For sure. It was very informative, and quite specific. Very much so. I just didn't find any of that information challenging, really, in any way, to my belief in the existence of God. I definitely didn't feel like I had been shown why a belief in God should be considered "delusional".
I did enjoy it, though, for the most part. I didn't mean to only write criticisms.. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8326
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Adam_Love wrote: |
For sure. It was very informative, and quite specific. Very much so. I just didn't find any of that information challenging, really, in any way, to my belief in the existence of God. I definitely didn't feel like I had been shown why a belief in God should be considered "delusional". |
What would you say to someone who says that faith is not a sound mechanism for reasoning?
It is not ok to believe things based on faith. People's conclusions should be based on reason. Furthermore, people's skepticism should be proportional to the extravagance of the claims being made, so nobody should have STRONG convictions (especially fantastical convictions) based on faith.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Leo
Newbie Alert
Joined: 10 Sep 2008
Posts: 4
Location: N.C.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: The God Delusion |
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| Adam_Love wrote: | Has anybody here read Richard Dawkin's book 'The God Delusion'?
I'm about half way through.. Just wondering what you guys thought of it.. |
I have and he uses science but faith and prayer go beyond science. |
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 613
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | ShardikSon wrote: | I read the first chapter, so far.
I perceive that most atheists have rejected the idea of God, because they have rejected religion.
Then they build a religion around the idea of no God.
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This is an oxymoron. How can you have a religion without at least some kind of god or some mysticism?
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Religion is not reliant upon a god, or gods, or deities, necessarily.
Religion is defined as:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
Now THERE is your oxymoron. The Christians believe in a god, The God, while the Buddha tells us there is no god.
Of course then the Muslims confuse the matter with:
"There is no god but God..."
But as you can see, religion, and behaving religiously do not require a god, but merely some idea or notion, of fundamental belief upon which one may circle his wagons and defend his territory.
Are willing to circle your wagons around the idea that there is NO GOD, never no way, no how, absolutely can't happen. Period, end of story? That is religious fervor, my friend. And that is the attitude of many atheists.
Or perhaps would you say that you don't think there is a god because you see no verifiable evidence of one?
Now as you claim to be a scientific minded soul, I bet you fall more into this category.
Perhaps you have evidence that absolutely proves that there is no way that a god of any kind can exist?
I suspect you simply have seen no evidence of a god. Or you did not recognize evidence presented and real evidence.
When I was studying science I was taught that lack of evidence is not evidence.
So perhaps you are a skeptic?
Not that I insist that you take on a label, at all.
We have far too many labels in the world, as it is.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8326
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: |
Religion is not reliant upon a god, or gods, or deities, necessarily.
Religion is defined as:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
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Where did you get this definition?
| ShardikSon wrote: |
Are willing to circle your wagons around the idea that there is NO GOD, never no way, no how, absolutely can't happen. Period, end of story? That is religious fervor, my friend. And that is the attitude of many atheists.
Or perhaps would you say that you don't think there is a god because you see no verifiable evidence of one?
Now as you claim to be a scientific minded soul, I bet you fall more into this category.
Perhaps you have evidence that absolutely proves that there is no way that a god of any kind can exist?
I suspect you simply have seen no evidence of a god. Or you did not recognize evidence presented and real evidence.
When I was studying science I was taught that lack of evidence is not evidence.
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True, but that is not why I reject God's existence. Science demands skepticism, and it demands it in proportion to the extravagance of the claims being made. I consider the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving personal God to be an extremely extravagant claim, and furthermore we don't have a shred of evidence to support any claims of his existence, let alone the powerful evidence which would be required. Scientific thought therefore requires strong skepticism.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 613
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | ShardikSon wrote: |
Religion is not reliant upon a god, or gods, or deities, necessarily.
Religion is defined as:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
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Where did you get this definition?
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Dictionary.com
| P1234567890 wrote: | | ShardikSon wrote: |
...
When I was studying science I was taught that lack of evidence is not evidence.
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True, but that is not why I reject God's existence. Science demands skepticism, and it demands it in proportion to the extravagance of the claims being made. I consider the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving personal God to be an extremely extravagant claim, and furthermore we don't have a shred of evidence to support any claims of his existence, let alone the powerful evidence which would be required. Scientific thought therefore requires strong skepticism. |
Healthy skepticism is required in the world.
I remain a skeptic, as well, but I know that God is.
No, I am not trying to convince you of that.
It just is what it is.
I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe.
I am just saying that an open, skeptical mind is a healthy one.
And I have enjoyed our exchanges, so far.
_________________
-----------
"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8326
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know. I don't think atheism fits that definition of religion. For instance,
| Quote: | | 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. |
Atheists don't believe that the universe was created by a superhuman agency or agencies. Atheists also don't believe that there is any purpose to the universe, and there are no devotional or ritual observances.
That's one of our major problems: We don't have any good holidays!
| ShardikSon wrote: |
Healthy skepticism is required in the world.
I remain a skeptic, as well, but I know that God is.
No, I am not trying to convince you of that.
It just is what it is.
I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe.
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There are many different levels of believing in God. Some people believe that there is a God which created the universe, but that it is not a personal God. Others believe that he is a personal God, but not necessarily any of the Gods for which there is an organized religion. Others believe that it is the Christian God or Hindu God, or some Greek Gods, etc. And then you have people who not only believe that it is a specific God, but that they also have his inerrant word written in a holy book, and that holy book is literally true.
This forms a sort of hierarchy, and as you go further down it, the claims are stronger and stronger, so you need more and more faith to adhere to the beliefs.
If I might ask, approximately where in this hierarchy do your beliefs fit? Do you believe in a personal God? Is it a specific God? Do you believe that a certain holy book contains his teachings? How much of that holy book is literally true?
| ShardikSon wrote: |
I am just saying that an open, skeptical mind is a healthy one. |
Definitely.
| ShardikSon wrote: |
And I have enjoyed our exchanges, so far. |
Likewise!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 613
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
If I might ask, approximately where in this hierarchy do your beliefs fit? Do you believe in a personal God? Is it a specific God? Do you believe that a certain holy book contains his teachings? How much of that holy book is literally true?
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My beliefs:
http://www.bible-discussion.com/message-board-forum/viewtopic.php?p=137200&highlight=#137200
Somewhat simplified, but the basics are there.
_________________
-----------
"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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