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Siam
Bear
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 673
Location: middle of oz
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 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: |
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Hi Virb’
Thought I would move the discussion over to this page as it might be more adequate as I am willing to discuss your position with you.
Virbate
I just would like to let you know that I can prove that Jesus lived as a man. I can prove it scientifically. I can also prove that Adam lived in the Garden of Eden with Eve, and many other things - the key points, of the Bible.
Siam:
Cool, because this is my rave. This stuff CAN NOT be proved nor should it be. Its mythology, a way of finding ones truth through parable.
Virbate
As far as all the genealogies and specific details, I cannot prove them. I haven't even read all of them.
Siam:
Just look at the Jesus Genealogies!
Virbate
And I know for a fact that knowing the truth about these key stories in the Bible is vital to one's well-being. When I look at the way you are trying to see things, I can only say that you're trying to reinvent the wheel. And guess what, if you succeed in "reinventing the wheel" you'll have worked hard to create the same thing that existed already, since there is only one wheel.
Siam:
Unlike your “Natural Jesus”???
Virbate
I believe that you have been a victim of the false preacher - in this case the Pope.
Siam:
OOOHHH…Conspiracy. Yep; the pope told me to understand that we are all God….NOT!
Virbate
I think that your position toward the Bible is reactionary, and irrational. But... to each his own. If you feel willing and able to discuss anything I say in rational, cool and calm terms, I'll be glad to.
Siam:
Dude; I react to any claims that the bible is historical proof. Christianity is fine as a “Religion” that one chooses (subverted) to follow but don’t ever confuse your desire to believe its “Truth” over the fact that it is way to shady a turf to ever be able to lay claim to as an absolute.
Virbate
Your focus determines your reality [Jedi saying].
Siam:
Nrrrrrarrrgharrraaa.
(Peace in Wooki.)
_________________
http://iamchristlord.webs.com/
It's the best that my web provider can do at the moment though it is still not working right! |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| Siam wrote: | Virbate:
I just would like to let you know that I can prove that Jesus lived as a man. I can prove it scientifically. I can also prove that Adam lived in the Garden of Eden with Eve, and many other things - the key points, of the Bible.
Siam:
Cool, because this is my rave. This stuff CAN NOT be proved nor should it be. Its mythology, a way of finding ones truth through parable. |
Ok.
| Siam wrote: | Virbate:
As far as all the genealogies and specific details, I cannot prove them. I haven't even read all of them.
Siam:
Just look at the Jesus Genealogies! |
Don't know what you are getting at.
| Siam wrote: | Virbate:
And I know for a fact that knowing the truth about these key stories in the Bible is vital to one's well-being. When I look at the way you are trying to see things, I can only say that you're trying to reinvent the wheel. And guess what, if you succeed in "reinventing the wheel" you'll have worked hard to create the same thing that existed already, since there is only one wheel.
Siam:
Unlike your “Natural Jesus”??? |
Don't know what you're getting at again. Sounds sarcastic though. Please advise.
| Siam wrote: | Virbate:
I think that your position toward the Bible is reactionary, and irrational. But... to each his own. If you feel willing and able to discuss anything I say in rational, cool and calm terms, I'll be glad to.
Siam:
Dude; I react to any claims that the bible is historical proof. Christianity is fine as a “Religion” that one chooses (subverted) to follow but don’t ever confuse your desire to believe its “Truth” over the fact that it is way to shady a turf to ever be able to lay claim to as an absolute. |
Tunnel vision. |
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Siam
Bear
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 673
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Hi Virb' lets chat.
Siam wrote:
Cool, because this is my rave. This stuff CAN NOT be proved nor should it be. Its mythology, a way of finding ones truth through parable.
Virbate:
Ok.
Siam:
Ok?...OK!...
You believe without a doubt that Jesus was born, died and lived. And all you say is Ok.
My point was that I don’t believe this and you do. You actually said this:
Virbate
I just would like to let you know that I can prove that Jesus lived as a man. I can prove it scientifically. I can also prove that Adam lived in the Garden of Eden with Eve, and many other things - the key points, of the Bible.
Well…I want your scientific proof?
Virbate:
As far as all the genealogies and specific details, I cannot prove them. I haven't even read all of them.
Siam:
Just look at the Jesus Genealogies!
Virbate:
Don't know what you are getting at.
Siam:
Sorry… Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38.
Virbate: Don't know what you're getting at again. Sounds sarcastic though. Please advise.
Siam;
Well…you just went all.. "Reinventing the wheel! You'll have worked hard to create the same thing that existed already!"…on me.
So yeah…it might have been sarcasm.
However, that does not change my answer. I’m putting forward a thesis pertaining to the energetic system and how the bible seems to be showing how we are connected to God energetically.
And yeah…there’s nothing new per say, but I think its fresh enough for discussion.
Siam wrote:
Dude; I react to any claims that the bible is historical proof. Christianity is fine as a “Religion” that one chooses (subverted) to follow but don’t ever confuse your desire to believe its “Truth” over the fact that it is way to shady a turf to ever be able to lay claim to as an absolute.
Virbate:
Tunnel vision.
Wiki: (and Siam)
In medical terms, tunnel vision is the loss of peripheral vision with retention of central vision, resulting in a constricted circular tunnel-like field of vision.
Tunnel vision can be caused by:
• Blood Loss (NO  )
• Alcohol consumption causes tunnel vision [1]. In addition, the vision becomes blurred or double since eye muscles lose their precision causing them to be unable to focus on the same object. (  Sometimes…not now.)
• Retinitis pigmentosa, a disease of the eye. (NO  )
• Group B Rally driving (1985, 1986) Sustained (1 second or more) high accelerations [3]. Typically, flying an airplane with a centripetal acceleration of up to or over 39 m/s2 (4gs) with the head towards the center of curvature, common in aerobatic or fighter pilots. In these cases tunnel vision and brownout may proceed to or g-force induced Loss Of Consciousness (g-LOC). (Or driving with my wife…)
•Hallucinogenic drugs, in particular the Dissociatives. (Not recently.  )
• Glaucoma, a disease of the eye. (No  )
• Extreme fear or distress, most often in the context of a panic attack. (Only on hearing Christian inspirational music.  )
• During an intense physical fight. (Lets go Virb’ Natural Jesus against Chakra Man.)
• When combined with piloting an aircraft, driving, crossing roads, snake bites or operating heavy machinery, the consequences can be fatal. (Oh man, that happened to me on the way to work this morning.  )
Virbate:
I think that your position toward the Bible is reactionary, and irrational. But... to each his own. If you feel willing and able to discuss anything I say in rational, cool and calm terms, I'll be glad to.
Siam.
Say what you whilst my friend and let our tempers be spared.
_________________
http://iamchristlord.webs.com/
It's the best that my web provider can do at the moment though it is still not working right! |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Siam wrote: | Virbate
I just would like to let you know that I can prove that Jesus lived as a man. I can prove it scientifically. I can also prove that Adam lived in the Garden of Eden with Eve, and many other things - the key points, of the Bible.
Well…I want your scientific proof? |
To begin we have to agree on the subject. So for now let's put aside whether the story of Jesus is myth or fact, and let's focus on what that story is. What does Jesus (myth or fact) teach? Once we are clear on this basis we can move ahead to discuss my proof of why Jesus must be a real, living man. Obviously, if we cannot agree on what He teaches, the we cannot move from there.
Basically, what Jesus taught is the solution to an age old, fundamental problem that has plagued mankind for as long as anyone can remember. This problem is the root problem, which is responsible for everything that is wrong in every person's life, and in the world generally - the problem of sin (incorrect thinking).
Outside of Jesus message, called the Gospel (Good News of His Kingdom - the Kingdom of God) people basically try to overcome sin by pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. They realize intuitively that the way they live and how they are is not right, and they don't like it, but they are powerless to change.
Why are they powerless to change? It is because the very tools that they would normally use to save themselves from a problem - logic, reason, love, understanding - have all been twisted and corrupted (made ineffective) by the very nature of sin. It's like being lost in a maze with no short term or long term memory. It's like being in a ship that is taking in water, with only a sieve to dip water out of the ship. It's hopeless.
Jesus (real man or myth) flipped the script. The fundamental flaw in trying to save yourself is that you're lost, and don't know the way. But He showed us the Way. He taught that you cannot save yourself (by human means), since your tools of logic and understanding are corrupt. But He taught that it is possible to save yourself by faith, by believing in your inner man, and trusting the Way of the inner man (the spirit).
So instead of seeing the problem of sin in terms of separation (in terms of everything that's wrong, and trying to fix it). You cannot fix what is broken, when the only tool you have to use is the broken thing. He pointed out that there is something in us that is not broken. That thing is called faith. It is the spirit of life, the Way of life, the Word of God. By relying on that Word, and thinking in terms of that Word, we free ourselves from the vicious cycle of trying to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, and always failing.
Jesus taught a new paradigm - redemption not by focusing on the letter of the law, but in freedom, by focusing on the Spirit of Life.
Okay so far? Please confirm with more than a yes or a no, so that we can move forward, both knowing where the other stands. Thanks. Anyone else want to comment, that's great too. |
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Siam
Bear
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 673
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Virbate.
You said:
To begin we have to agree on the subject. So for now let's put aside whether the story of Jesus is myth or fact.
Siam.
Ok.
Virbate says:
Basically, what Jesus taught is the solution to an age old, fundamental problem - the problem of sin (incorrect thinking).
Siam.
Besides the sinister connotations of Orwellian "thought control police" on its basic level this is what I believe.
Our thoughts put into place our state of mind and that reflects outward toward all we meet and bring to us.
However sin as an inner variant is not evil, it is simply missing the mark.
It is when we override our higher intuitive process (what I believe Jesus is referring to when discussing “Our” Father in Heaven.) and act upon our thoughts that an evil has taken place and hell is just around the corner.
Virbate says:
People basically try to overcome sin by pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. They realize intuitively that the way they live and how they are is not right, and they don't like it, but they are powerless to change.
Why are they powerless to change?
Siam:
Now this is where it starts to break down for me. You say this: It is because the very tools that they would normally use to save themselves from a problem - logic, reason, love, understanding - have all been twisted and corrupted (made ineffective) by the very nature of sin.
It is this last line that has two meanings. Our corruption through being born into sin is not a reality. We are born into love. It is then up to our parents and society to corrupt us through there prier corruption and so forth.
Add to this some science and we start to see that everything on this 3D plain is a polarity. Yes we are born with this negative aspect of who we are but we also have positive attributes to balance this out.
Good ol’ religious dogma has been trying to make us feel guilty by making healthy attributes to the human psyche sins, leaving us with instant feelings of guilt over personal things like masturbation or what food we need to eat on certain days. It is this dogma that leads to this: It's like being lost in a maze with no short term or long term memory. It's like being in a ship that is taking in water, with only a sieve to dip water out of the ship. It's hopeless.
Virbate says:
Jesus (real man or myth) flipped the script. The fundamental flaw in trying to save yourself is that you're lost, and don't know the way. But He showed us the Way. He taught that you cannot save yourself (by human means), since your tools of logic and understanding are corrupt.
Siam:
Yeah, ok, you say this… but Christians understand that for them to be granted access to “Heaven” (A spiffy lil’ place you can hang after death.) if you put God outside of yourself. You know the story, you must believe that Jesus died and rose again for your sins. So when you ‘loosely’ use the term faith most Christians would tell you they have faith in the above sentence, not faith in any inner “Man”.
Virbate:
You cannot fix what is broken, when the only tool you have to use is the broken thing.
Siam says:
The infinite universal consciousness (GOD) can not and has not made anything broken!
And a belief in the infallibility of God makes this point mute.
It appears to me that we have been given everything to help expand this love that is at our core. In fact this is our purpose.
To expand love. We need a variant to measure against. If we just lived in love we could not grow for all we would know would be the light. A stagnant god does not reflect the human desire to be better.
Do not forget that we are made in the image of God.
Virbate:
He pointed out that there is something in us that is not broken. That thing is called faith. It is the spirit of life, the Way of life, the Word of God. By relying on that Word, and thinking in terms of that Word, we free ourselves from the vicious cycle of trying to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, and always failing.
Siam says:
Classic psycho babble. Are you saying that I should suspend my knowledge of bible history and the conditions that “The word of God” had been implemented to focus “faith” in a controlled and dogmatic procession, and simply let go and say… “Or shucks, I’ll have “faith” in the bible as gods infinite word and ignore all the evil that has been done in “His” name, stick my head in the clouds (after all heaven is up there!) And start feeling mighty righteous because I call Jesus my true God and everyone who doesn’t believe this is a sinner who I will watch burn in hell for eternity while “I” sit at the right hand of God.”
Do you Virbate believe this: He taught a new paradigm - redemption not by focusing on the letter of the law, but in freedom, by focusing on the Spirit of Life.
Or do you believe this: That thing is called faith. It is the spirit of life, the Way of life, the Word of God.
Because this is a conundrum. You either believe in the spirit of life, god within, all having a purpose etc, or that Jesus taught us our faith in the “Word” of god (The bible) is our salvation.
If you think that we can all be loving beings by participating in biblical subservience via the bible, I say that history has thrown this theory well and truly out of the window.
I actually believe that you are a Christian, masquerading as an enlightened thinker.
I state this fact.
If you believe that Jesus is God then you are alienating a huge hunk of fellow humans (the ones we are told to love) and subjecting them to a belief that god will punish them for not accepting this belief.
To me this is the bottom line dealing with the racism and alienation that religion imposes. A “I’m better than you because I am chosen” attitude.
And you might not belong to a church but if you believe that to be “saved” you must believe in the resurrection then you are playing ball in the same paddock.
And it is this that makes me think that Jesus wasn’t real and the Christian view point ridicules, because a God that makes his fleeting earthly visit a cause for 2000 years of segregation, pain and annihilation, and then asks us to have “faith”…
Sorry…can’t work.
Siam.
_________________
http://iamchristlord.webs.com/
It's the best that my web provider can do at the moment though it is still not working right! |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Siam wrote: | Virbate says:
Basically, what Jesus taught is the solution to an age old, fundamental problem - the problem of sin (incorrect thinking).
Siam.
Besides the sinister connotations of Orwellian "thought control police" on its basic level this is what I believe.
Our thoughts put into place our state of mind and that reflects outward toward all we meet and bring to us.
However sin as an inner variant is not evil, it is simply missing the mark.
It is when we override our higher intuitive process (what I believe Jesus is referring to when discussing “Our” Father in Heaven.) and act upon our thoughts that an evil has taken place and hell is just around the corner. |
Well, you have a nice, clever, and exciting theory going on there, which I hope to demonstrate is only part of the truth (a part that the preachers really need to hear about btw). Let's continue and get to the bottom of this. | Siam wrote: | Virbate says:
People basically try to overcome sin by pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. They realize intuitively that the way they live and how they are is not right, and they don't like it, but they are powerless to change.
Why are they powerless to change?
Siam:
Now this is where it starts to break down for me. You say this: It is because the very tools that they would normally use to save themselves from a problem - logic, reason, love, understanding - have all been twisted and corrupted (made ineffective) by the very nature of sin.
It is this last line that has two meanings. Our corruption through being born into sin is not a reality. We are born into love. |
Okay, I agree with this. What I said could be interpreted in that other way, but actually I was talking about sin as an illusion. That is, as far as the flesh, and that system, it is a reality (we live inefficiently, and wrongly when compared to the ideal way for a person to live, practically speaking). But as far as the spirit, we are not guilty. So guilt is an illusion. Note I didn't mention guilt at all. I mentioned sin, which is defined as missing the mark. So your comments on this are really off on a tangent - the result of having to check if I'm coming from the preacher's perspective, which I'm not. So now we have that cleared up, let's move forward.
| Siam wrote: | Virbate says:
Jesus (real man or myth) flipped the script. The fundamental flaw in trying to save yourself is that you're lost, and don't know the way. But He showed us the Way. He taught that you cannot save yourself (by human means), since your tools of logic and understanding are corrupt.
Siam:
Yeah, ok, you say this… but Christians understand that for them to be granted access to “Heaven” (A spiffy lil’ place you can hang after death.) if you put God outside of yourself. You know the story, you must believe that Jesus died and rose again for your sins. So when you ‘loosely’ use the term faith most Christians would tell you they have faith in the above sentence, not faith in any inner “Man”. |
Okay, you're going to have to settle down and talk to me, instead of ranting about what the preachers have taught. Let's stick to the Bible, you, me, and common sense, okay? When I talk about faith I mean simply "faith" - believing in what you have not yet seen with your physical eyes. When you see it your faith is dormant, and knowledge takes its place, since now you know, and cannot have faith in that thing.
| Siam wrote: | Virbate:
You cannot fix what is broken, when the only tool you have to use is the broken thing.
Siam says:
The infinite universal consciousness (GOD) can not and has not made anything broken! |
Again, I didn't say anything is broken. When I talk about being broken I refer to the way our minds conceive things, not that we are ever ourselves "broken". I'll work on a more precise way of stating that. Forgive me for that; I also am working my way out of the religious muck. But I hope we can move forward with that understanding now.[/quote]
| Siam wrote: | Do you Virbate believe this: He taught a new paradigm - redemption not by focusing on the letter of the law, but in freedom, by focusing on the Spirit of Life.
Or do you believe this: That thing is called faith. It is the spirit of life, the Way of life, the Word of God.
Because this is a conundrum. You either believe in the spirit of life, god within, all having a purpose etc, or that Jesus taught us our faith in the “Word” of god (The bible) is our salvation.
If you think that we can all be loving beings by participating in biblical subservience via the bible, I say that history has thrown this theory well and truly out of the window.
If you believe that Jesus is God then you are alienating a huge hunk of fellow humans (the ones we are told to love) and subjecting them to a belief that god will punish them for not accepting this belief. |
The fact is that the preachers have taken God's good word and turned it into a religion, based on fear. They missed the point - namely, nature.
You are now pointing out how unnatural their interpretation is. But Jesus never taught those things that they teach, which are unnatural. Neither do I. So again, please try to refrain from grouping me with everyone else who has said: "Jesus is a real man." I think you're doing the same type of "subjecting them to a belief" that you despise so much.
I do believe that Jesus is God, but not by way of alienating anyone, or subjecting anyone to anything. I believe only in nature, which does not "subject" or "alienate" at any time in any way. Now that I've responded (I know I didn't itemize my response based on each statement you made, but I've gotten to the basic elements)... please review, and re-approach and let me know what your key concerns are. Then we can move ahead with the proof, once we have agreed on what we're talking about. Okay? |
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Siam
Bear
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 673
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi ya’ Virb’.
You said;
Let's stick to the Bible, you, me, and common sense, okay?
When I talk about faith I mean simply "faith" - believing in what you have not yet seen with your physical eyes.
Siam says:
Cool, that’s about the bottom line of faith, but this is also where our communication breakdown is coming from.
Here is my faith, based on two possible outcomes.
We are eternal spirit.
We die…the end.
My faith is that we are eternal beings.
I believe that most “spiritual belief” is based on this faith, and that Jesus was defiantly espousing this belief.
I also think, as a rule, most religions have an eternal self aspect but then hell comes into play and we end up paying for our “sins” in eternal pain, a senseless and egotistical belief for those who desire retribution as apposed to forgiveness and a lousy way for a god of love to behave.
Virbate:
So again, please try to refrain from grouping me with everyone else who has said: "Jesus is a real man." I think you're doing the same type of "subjecting them to a belief" that you despise so much. I do believe that Jesus is God, but not by way of alienating anyone, or subjecting anyone to anything. I believe only in nature, which does not "subject" or "alienate" at any time in any way.
Siam.
Well lets arrive at the heart of your belief then.
If Jesus is “Natural Wo/Man” to you, how does the spirit of Christ rise again in your belief?
And if you believe that Jesus is God than do you believe that “HE” manifested himself to us as his son so that we could worship a convoluted and misconstrued version of “God” for 2000 years or more?
Virbate:
Now that I've responded (I know I didn't itemize my response based on each statement you made, but I've gotten to the basic elements)...
Siam;
That’s because I don’t know how to post other peoples quotes consecutively. 
Virbate:
please review, and re-approach and let me know what your key concerns are. Then we can move ahead with the proof, once we have agreed on what we're talking about. Okay?
Siam:
Done!
Proof!!! Good Luck!
_________________
http://iamchristlord.webs.com/
It's the best that my web provider can do at the moment though it is still not working right! |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| Siam wrote: | My faith is that we are eternal beings.
I believe that most “spiritual belief” is based on this faith, and that Jesus was defiantly espousing this belief.
I also think, as a rule, most religions have an eternal self aspect but then hell comes into play and we end up paying for our “sins” in eternal pain, a senseless and egotistical belief for those who desire retribution as apposed to forgiveness and a lousy way for a god of love to behave. |
That hell issue is controversial even in Christian circles. Let's put it aside for now, since it isn't central to the reality of faith itself. As far as a definition of faith, mine is simply that the visible world comes from the invisible world - God (Spirit) is the Creator or source of everything visible. Therefore His character is the essential fabric and purpose of the created world, and everything in it (objects, systems and events). So this definition of faith provides a whole world view for how we see things, and how we understand ourselves.
| Siam wrote: | Virbate:
I believe only in nature, which does not "subject" or "alienate" at any time in any way.
Siam.
Well lets arrive at the heart of your belief then.
If Jesus is “Natural Wo/Man” to you, how does the spirit of Christ rise again in your belief? |
The Spirit of Christ rises by the power of God, which manifests through the words of true understanding of nature. People can be confused by false thinking and get a false concept of nature (human nature and the outside world). But God's word clears that up so that we have knowledge. As everyone knows, knowledge is power. Knowledge about nature allows you to live a fulfilled life. So that's how we live.
| Siam wrote: | | And if you believe that Jesus is God than do you believe that “HE” manifested himself to us as his son so that we could worship a convoluted and misconstrued version of “God” for 2000 years or more? |
Well, people getting confused about something doesn't mean that the thing is confusing, does it? It simply means that they are confused. Actually God expressing Himself as Jesus is only natural, and makes common sense. Humans see things in human terms, and God sees things in divine terms. These two frames of reference unite only in one situation - a man that knows and walks the Way. So this man is God and man at once, since His life, Way and Character are divine. As such, He is the only possible mechanism by which to bridge the gap between God's frame of reference, and that of a fallen race. |
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keeperofthesabbath
Not So Newbie
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 8
Location: montana
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: Theseldomscene.. |
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Do you NOT see what he is doing?He has caused you to step away from whats right and join him on his level.Please open your eyes and let him control your mind,anymore.These things you disagree over will end,they will end very soon..Rest assured in what you you beleive.His distractions take your mind away from your porose..Live your life to the GLORY of God...What would Jesus do?He would NOT be brought down by mere words.Stand strong and let God deal with the ones who tread against him.Spread the good news of Jesus Christ...Blessings...Angela...More To Come... |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Theseldomscene.. |
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| keeperofthesabbath wrote: |
Do you NOT see what he is doing?He has caused you to step away from whats right and join him on his level.Please open your eyes and let him control your mind,anymore.These things you disagree over will end,they will end very soon..Rest assured in what you you beleive.His distractions take your mind away from your porose..Live your life to the GLORY of God...What would Jesus do?He would NOT be brought down by mere words.Stand strong and let God deal with the ones who tread against him.Spread the good news of Jesus Christ...Blessings...Angela...More To Come... |
I'm pretty comfortable, and won't lose my ground. Is there any particular point where you feel I've lost grounding in reality? |
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keeperofthesabbath
Not So Newbie
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 8
Location: montana
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| This is for theseldonscene..Not directed to you..Sorry... |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| keeperofthesabbath wrote: | | This is for theseldonscene..Not directed to you..Sorry... |
Sorry theseldomscene is no longer with us.
Nobby
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Much Love Nobby
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Siam
Bear
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 673
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: |
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Hi Virbate;
You said:
That hell issue is controversial even in Christian circles. Let's put it aside for now, since it isn't central to the reality of faith itself.
Siam say:
Fine.
Virbate:
As far as a definition of faith, mine is simply that the visible world comes from the invisible world.
Siam says:
I don’t think this is an actual faith per say, but a quantum fact.
Virbate says:
God (Spirit) is the Creator or source of everything visible.
Siam:
What about the non-visible?
Virbate:
Therefore His character is the essential fabric and purpose of the created world, and everything in it (objects, systems and events). So this definition of faith provides a whole world view for how we see things, and how we understand ourselves.
Siam says:
Well “God” did say this: Let us make man in our image. So the fabric and purpose of the created world is manifested through us and our connection to that higher source via the Father (our higher intuitive self.)
To me THIS definition of faith provides a whole person view for how we see things, and how we understand ourselves as opposed to what Christians usually state, and keep stating, that God is a man outside of our self and separate from us.
Siam.
Well let’s arrive at the heart of your belief then.
If Jesus is “Natural Wo/Man” to you, how does the spirit of Christ rise again in your belief?
Virbate:
The Spirit of Christ rises by the power of God, which manifests through the words of true understanding of nature. People can be confused by false thinking and get a false concept of nature (human nature and the outside world). But God's word clears that up so that we have knowledge. As everyone knows, knowledge is power. Knowledge about nature allows you to live a fulfilled life. So that's how we live.
Siam says;
You don’t need a God for this!
If you wish to worship nature and believe that Jesus was showing this truth through HIS words then what are the words that lead you to this belief.
The problem I am having whilst discussing my belief with you is that I have seen a common thread flowing through the bible that flows through a lot of eastern traditions. It has been this connection that has then made me look deeper at the bible and the words of Jesus that I than lay open to discussion, where as you talk of a “natural” God/Jesus/Man with nary a scripture to verify your not well substantiated or documented faith/belief.
Virbate:
God expressing Himself as Jesus is only natural, and makes common sense. Humans see things in human terms, and God sees things in divine terms.
Siam:
Bango! 
This is where you and mine belief go in opposite directions and makes me wonder why you are interested in debating with me.
I believe that there is no distinction between God and Life. God is life, God is me, God is you, God is all.
But God is not separate.
The concept of God manifesting to “us” (them) as a Man is not natural. In fact it’s plain bloody silly!
The “natural” approach, as stated in Wicca, Pagan and nature based beliefs is that the “Natural” human is in tune with the seasons and cycles of the planet and sees these things, quite rightly, reflected in themselves.
Virbate:
So this man is God and man at once, since His life, Way and Character are divine.
Siam:
Only in as much as all of our character is divine. We are created equal, god is not a man, and Jesus as a historical figure (back to the essence of “Christian” belief) is pretty slim and impossible to prove.
Virbate:
As such, He is the only possible mechanism by which to bridge the gap between God's frame of reference, and that of a fallen race.
Siam:
Yeah Yeah Yeah… Heard it all before. Now believe that he died and rose for your sins and you will have eternal reward in heaven.
I do not see how your “Natural” Jesus belief is differing from the standard and typically shattered realm of beliefs that are offered by any and all factions of Christianity.
Why ARE you interested in debating with me?
Siam.
_________________
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| You're right. Let's just forget it. |
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Delph63
Not So Newbie
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Suffolk, Va
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Grace wrote: | Siam said | Quote: | 6: And the very name Christ is an evolution of the ancient Hindu name of the sun, Krst.
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actually the name Christ is the anglicized version of the greek word Christos which is a translation from the word Messiah (or Mashiach in the actual Hebrew) meaning anointed one.
I have only dealt with one of your 6 ummm,accusations as I have learnt to take one thing at a time. But one thing I know for sure.
Jesus Christ is God
Hmmm the issue with declaring "Jesus is God", is the simple fact that he is identified as the Son of God. In addition the most troubling fact is that Jesus DIED. Now if he is God..."who alone is immortal" than there is a definite problem. Either God died...not possible or the concept of the Trinity...a word NOT found in scripture, is a man made idea...Like at the Niacene Council where is topic was discusse...Yes the trinity did not come around until 325 A.D. when Gnostics started to re-emerge in the Christian communities.
If we read Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, the gospels, was identified as the "son of the Most High" by the foremost apostle Peter, then the idea of Jesus being God...just not working.
~*Grace*~ |
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