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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2852
Location: Charismatic
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 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| JonMarie wrote: | | I love analogies. |
Merely realize, though, that the map is not the terrain.
| JonMarie wrote: | | I am not aware that Luther believed that water baptisim saves ones soul, but rather it gives evidence that one has the desire to live the new life in Christ. |
SCREEECHHHHHHH! (The sound of analogous breaks.)
You confuse Luther with Müntzer. The whirring sound is Luther rolling over in his grave.
Luther violently opposed Anabaptism – the doctrine that one must be re-baptized after coming to a new life in Christ founded upon faith – and held firm to the Orthodox (i.e. Catholic) sacrament of infant baptism even to his death.
Luther held that baptism was required for salvation, in accordance with the scriptures, but also that works have no value of merit toward salvation. In that infant baptism is something done to you, while Anabaptism (re-baptism) is something you do (instigate?) yourself, he regarded this thing nowadays called “Believer's Baptism” as a work – something you do, and hence rejected such teaching.
One cannot become a member of the Lutheran church unless one can show evidence of having been baptized at birth (e.g. a traditional denominational baptism certificate), or submits to the church baptizing you as an adult. Baptism is a sacrament mediated TO you by the church. It is not a profession or expression of faith FROM you. (That view entered into the protestant church through Joseph Arminius and was popularized in today's culture by Evangelicals.)
I just went through this song and dance to become a member of a Lutheran Church. I could not find my Baptism certificate, but I could find my Anabaptism certificate. The pastor was rolling on the floor laughing at this (as he understood my joke), while the head of council was gravely concerned
Faith, according to Luther, was one’s Total Reliance upon God through Jesus Christ to effect your salvation. (You didn’t even “make” yourself believe.)
Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2852
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Faith |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | The present Christian world-at-large, lacks faith. |
And BINGO, we have definition number Three, Faith as an adherence to stipulated rules of behaviour.
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | I say this because they have surplanted (sic) their ideas and feelings, for what God has said in the Bible. |
I find this fascinating, Surfer, in that you have supplanted your own ideas and definitions for what is actually written in the Bible.
In Roman 10:17, the KJV actually writes “word of God” yet you replace this phrase with “the Bible,” out of your own feelings, thinking them to be the one and same thing. In actuality, Paul wrote “faith cometh from heralding, and heralding δια (through) ρηματος (the utterance) χριστου (of the Holy Ghost’s anointing).” Isaiah was anointed to herald the message of God in that Isaiah’s faith was in that which he heard God tell him directly, not from something he read in a book.
Such is to be our faith as well, if indeed God speaks (“ρημα-s”) to us.
Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2852
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Re: reply |
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| Siam wrote: | | A Non-denominational church group...isn't this an oxymoron? |
Not if you understand the definition of denomination. Such refers to a legally structured institutional organization that has valid legal jurisdiction (in some manner) over more than one church group. For example, the local council of a Presbyterian Church of America has the legal authority to hire and fire Pastors, but the church building itself is legal property of the PCA denomination and may be padlocked by the PCA if so desired.
Non-denominational churches are those who are not subject to any other organization’s legal jurisdiction.
The diocese of a Roman Catholic Church cannot take the property or dictate the policies and teachings of a Baptist church. There are some denominations that can demand a local congregation accept a gay pastor despite what the local membership may believe.
| Siam wrote: | | Unless your (sic) talking about “goobaly gahh boog whaaa” talking in tongues…then that’s just messed up. |
And BINGO, Siam’s carefully crafted image of being religiously tolerant goes up in a poof of smoke.
Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: reply |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | Siam wrote: |
Unless your (sic) talking about “goobaly gahh boog whaaa” talking in tongues…then that’s just messed up. |
And BINGO, Siam’s carefully crafted image of being religiously tolerant goes up in a poof of smoke.
Yehushuan |
Funny how "tolerance" is a one way street.
Hey Siam-
Can I borrow your Tongues to English Dictionary?
Cause the last time somebody "goobaly gahh boog whaaa'd" in the church I was at, nobody could translate.
Let's not even get into why "tongues" such as these never appears in catholic, lutheran, or United Methodist churches. Apparently, the Holy Spirit doesn't speak their language, and vice versa.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2852
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: reply |
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| eleven wrote: | | Let's not even get into why "tongues" such as these never appears in catholic, lutheran, or United Methodist churches. Apparently, the Holy Spirit doesn't speak their language, and vice versa. |
I agree let's not, because you are woefully misinformed.
John Wesley was quite an advocate of speaking in tongues when he established the Methodist church.
LINK
There is a small but committed number of Lutherans who are "closet Pentecostal" (I’ve since affiliated with these) as also in the Presbyterian Church and the Princeton Theological Seminary. (Would you like names?)
And the Charismatic movement is quite overt within the Roman Catholic Church. I’ve been there, seen that. Apparently you haven’t, yet feel qualified to judge the matter.
Hmmmm..
Yehushuan
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:54 am Post subject: Re: reply |
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| Yehushuan wrote: |
And the Charismatic movement is quite overt within the Roman Catholic Church. I’ve been there, seen that. Apparently you haven’t, yet feel qualified to judge the matter.
Hmmmm..
Yehushuan |
Insinuating what? That I'm dumber than a bag of rocks in the rain? Ya know what Yehu, you have a great deal of knowledge to offer, but your ego constantly betrays you. Constant put downs to others.
I'd really like to listen to what you have to say, but man, you are just too much work.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 731
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Yehu: | Quote: | | Faith, according to Luther, was one’s Total Reliance upon God through Jesus Christ to effect your salvation. (You didn’t even “make” yourself believe.) |
Do you take issue with that???
_________________
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 731
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Yehu: | Quote: | | Such is to be our faith as well, if indeed God speaks (“ρημα-s”) to us. |
Prov 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
_________________
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 731
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Yehu: | Quote: | | And BINGO, Siam’s carefully crafted image of being religiously tolerant goes up in a poof of smoke. |
Yehu, you say that as if being religiously tolerant is a good thing.
_________________
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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JonMarie
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 731
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Eleven: | Quote: | Hey Siam-
Can I borrow your Tongues to English Dictionary? |
_________________
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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