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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: Christ's Last Will & Testament |
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Christ's ...Last Will and Testament
A.) Hebrews 9:15 "And for this cause he (Christ) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth".
Now, for those who failed to understand what the Bible just said here.....
When men make out their last will....that last will is of no effect, as long as they are alive.
But, when a man dies, then that last will and testament, goes into effect.
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B.) Galations 3:15 "Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto".
Now again, for those who failed to understand what this Bible text is saying......
Is the fact, that no man, can change a person's last will and testament, after a person dies !
Otherwise, it is a criminal action...in terms of fraud, and or forgery.
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Now, we know Jesus did not write out a will, as men do today, BUT....
We have 4 reliable witnesses, regarding the last will and tesatment of Jesus Christ.
These 4 men recorded everything, Jesus Christ put into His last will.......
Matthew
Mark
Luke
and ...John
Matthew summed Christ's last will and testament up, in Matthew 28:19.....
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 "Teaching them to observe [all things] whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen".
Baptism ...is in Christ's last will and testament.
The Lord's Supper...is in the Christ's last will and testament.
Jesus commanded it and He did it....before He died, thus sealing these ordinaces within, His last will and testament, do you understand ?
OK now, when did Jesus Christ ever mention, anything, about Sunday (1st day of the week) worship services ?
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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GospelCompilation
Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 699
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: |
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This is an interesting thread, Surfer. My wife and I will be pleased to research it deeper from this perspective.
We are sort of unique, in that we consider ourselves to be disciples of Christ, and not disciples of Paul; so we are much more interested in what Christ taught than we are in what Paul taught (but, again, we don't believe Paul contradicted, added to, or changed the Word of God, either; rather, we believe Christianity has misunderstood and misapplied what Paul wrote in his letters and have made them to say something they were never intended to say).
Thank you again, though, for sharing this bit of insight with us. We look forward to being a Berean so we can dig into Scripture and discover if what you're suggesting is true or not.
Salute! |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | This is an interesting thread, Surfer. My wife and I will be pleased to research it deeper from this perspective.
We are sort of unique, in that we consider ourselves to be disciples of Christ, and not disciples of Paul; so we are much more interested in what Christ taught than we are in what Paul taught (but, again, we don't believe Paul contradicted, added to, or changed the Word of God, either; rather, we believe Christianity has misunderstood and misapplied what Paul wrote in his letters and have made them to say something they were never intended to say).
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Don't quite understand why you distinguish between the two.
Acts 9
13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."
15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."
17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Christ's Last Will & Testament |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: |
OK now, when did Jesus Christ ever mention, anything, about Sunday (1st day of the week) worship services ? |
Right here:
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
And everytime you ask that question, this is the reply you will get. Maybe you will understand it one day.
I'm praying for ya! 
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GospelCompilation
Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 699
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| SilverSurfer wrote: | | "I don't understand why you distinguish between [Jesus and Paul]." |
We make a clear distinction between Jesus and Paul because of what Gentile Christianity has done with Paul's writings. Unlike most of Christianity, we understand that Paul was a Jew: therefore, he drew on Jewish writings, believed Jewish theology, and had a Jewish perspective. He was a Jew, just like Jesus. Therefore, we interpret everything Paul said from a Jewish perspective.
Unfortunately, when Gentiles quote Paul, they draw on Greek writings, base their beliefs on Greek theology, and adopt a Greek perspective. That's why Gentile Christians accept Greek teachings about hell and the eternal soul, and Greek concepts about an angry, vengeful God who destroys life and inflicts harm and requires fresh blood in order to forgive, and Greek philosophies about three gods in one and praying to dead people for assistance, etc.
These pagan ideas fly in the face of Jewish Scripture, and would never have been supported by either Jesus or Paul, for they were both staunch Jewish men, who zealously defended their Jewish heritage and beliefs.
So, you see... we don't separate Jesus and Paul for our sake. We separate them for the sake of Gentile believers, who have unwittingly attached pagan ideas to Paul's writings.
I hope that explains our position. If not, feel free to comment. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | SilverSurfer wrote: | | "I don't understand why you distinguish between [Jesus and Paul]." |
We make a clear distinction between Jesus and Paul because of what Gentile Christianity has done with Paul's writings. Unlike most of Christianity, we understand that Paul was a Jew: therefore, he drew on Jewish writings, believed Jewish theology, and had a Jewish perspective. He was a Jew, just like Jesus. Therefore, we interpret everything Paul said from a Jewish perspective.
Unfortunately, when Gentiles quote Paul, they draw on Greek writings, base their beliefs on Greek theology, and adopt a Greek perspective. That's why Gentile Christians accept Greek teachings about hell and the eternal soul, and Greek concepts about an angry, vengeful God who destroys life and inflicts harm and requires fresh blood in order to forgive, and Greek philosophies about three gods in one and praying to dead people for assistance, etc.
These pagan ideas fly in the face of Jewish Scripture, and would never have been supported by either Jesus or Paul, for they were both staunch Jewish men, who zealously defended their Jewish heritage and beliefs.
So, you see... we don't separate Jesus and Paul for our sake. We separate them for the sake of Gentile believers, who have unwittingly attached pagan ideas to Paul's writings.
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Ok, first things first. Silver didn't ask you that question, I did.
Second, Paul was raised as a Jew, but had Roman citizenship, meaning he grew up around gentiles.
His father was a Pharisee.
Next, and this was my orginal question -
Why would you separate the two when scripture tells us Paul was "filled with the Holy Spirit", and personally chosen by Jesus?
Was Paul's God someone other that the God of Abraham?
Lastly, yes it is true that many pagan beliefs have been attached to his teaching over the years, does that now mean they are invalid? Can't be.
What Paul taught had nothing to do with paganism.
If it has evolved to that, then we need to get back in touch with Paul's original message.
An interesting side note here:
Paul began his ministry at the same age as Jesus. 30
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GospelCompilation
Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 699
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Eleven wrote: | | "Ok, first things first. Silver didn't ask you that question, I did." |
HAHA! We wondered why the question was asked so nicely. We apologize for the mix-up, then. We actually appreciated the opportunity to share our thoughts on the matter. So... thank you!
| Eleven wrote: | | "Second, Paul was raised as a Jew, but had Roman citizenship, meaning he grew up around Gentiles." |
True. However, I think we agree that Paul's contact with Gentiles did not influence him to adopt their philosophies or theologies. He was still very much a Jew.
| Eleven wrote: | | "Next, and this was my orginal question - Why would you separate [Jesus and Paul]? Was Paul's God someone other that the God of Abraham? And finally, while it is true that many pagan beliefs have been attached to his teaching over the years, does that now mean they are invalid?" |
The answer to these questions are No. No, we do no separate Jesus and Paul (Gentile Christianity has separated them, by making Paul appear to teach a different Gospel than Jesus taught), and we should have stated it that way; No, Paul's God was Yahweh - the same God Abraham worshiped - and Paul's letters are replete with allusions to the sacred name; and finally, No, Paul's letters are not invalid, except to the point that Gentile Christianity misinterprets them.
| Eleven wrote: | | "What Paul taught had nothing to do with paganism. If it has evolved to that, then we need to get back in touch with Paul's original message." |
We agree. And that's exactly what we strive to do... which sometimes means throwing out everything we've ever been taught to believe about Paul's writings.
| Eleven wrote: | | "An interesting side note - Paul began his ministry at the same age as Jesus: 30" |
My goodness. That's cool. I mean, if we can prove it. Where did you get the information? |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: |
True. However, I think we agree that Paul's contact with Gentiles did not influence him to adopt their philosophies or theologies. He was still very much a Jew. |
Maybe theologically speaking, but I don't believe in coincidences. It is plain that God would someday use Paul as the apostle to the gentiles, so what would make more sense than to raise him with Jewish theology and gentile life experience?
| GospelCompilation wrote: |
The answer to these questions are No. No, we do no separate Jesus and Paul (Gentile Christianity has separated them, by making Paul appear to teach a different Gospel than Jesus taught), and we should have stated it that way; No, Paul's God was Yahweh - the same God Abraham worshiped - and Paul's letters are replete with allusions to the sacred name; and finally, No, Paul's letters are not invalid, except to the point that Gentile Christianity misinterprets them. |
Ok, I'm still confused. Because before you said-
| GospelCompilation wrote: |
We are sort of unique, in that we consider ourselves to be disciples of Christ, and not disciples of Paul; so we are much more interested in what Christ taught than we are in what Paul taught |
| Eleven wrote: | | "An interesting side note - Paul began his ministry at the same age as Jesus: 30" |
| GospelCompilation wrote: |
My goodness. That's cool. I mean, if we can prove it. Where did you get the information? |
Uhhh....let's see here..........
Right now I am looking at the.............
NIV Compact Dictionary of the Bible
Douglas & Tenney
Published by Zondervan,
Copyright 1989
Enjoy!
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Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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ChristianWoman1
Labrador
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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wow..you know, I just now realized that I was born again in 2001...and I was 30years old  I never realized Paul was 30 when he began his ministry...and Jesus! wow... something about 30 years old huh? 
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Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.
ROMANS 12:2 |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| CW1 wrote: | | something about 30 years old huh? |
My sister once told me, "Wait till you reach your 30's. It's a reflective time." She was so right. There IS something about turning 30 that seems a turning point for most. It's a time of reflection & soul searching. I have loved my 30's. Perhaps that's why Jesus & Paul waited till they were in their 30's to minister. They had a better grip on life then.
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Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Evee wrote: | | CW1 wrote: | | something about 30 years old huh? |
My sister once told me, "Wait till you reach your 30's. It's a reflective time." She was so right. There IS something about turning 30 that seems a turning point for most. It's a time of reflection & soul searching. I have loved my 30's. Perhaps that's why Jesus & Paul waited till they were in their 30's to minister. They had a better grip on life then. |
My 30's were put on hold, having to raise a handicapped child, work, and go to school , took every second.
So now I'm almost 50, and have never had a better time in my life. Better late than never.
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | This is an interesting thread, Surfer. My wife and I will be pleased to research it deeper from this perspective.
We are sort of unique, in that we consider ourselves to be disciples of Christ, and not disciples of Paul; so we are much more interested in what Christ taught than we are in what Paul taught (but, again, we don't believe Paul contradicted, added to, or changed the Word of God, either; rather, we believe Christianity has misunderstood and misapplied what Paul wrote in his letters and have made them to say something they were never intended to say). |
Yes, God realized that also......because of all the Bible writers...only Paul's writings received a warning about being misunderstood.
2 Peter 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | GospelCompilation wrote: | This is an interesting thread, Surfer. My wife and I will be pleased to research it deeper from this perspective.
We are sort of unique, in that we consider ourselves to be disciples of Christ, and not disciples of Paul; so we are much more interested in what Christ taught than we are in what Paul taught (but, again, we don't believe Paul contradicted, added to, or changed the Word of God, either; rather, we believe Christianity has misunderstood and misapplied what Paul wrote in his letters and have made them to say something they were never intended to say). |
Yes, God realized that also......because of all the Bible writers...only Paul's writings received a warning about being misunderstood.
2 Peter 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. |
Uhhh.......sorry to correct you brother, but you are mistaken. It was Paul who corrected Peter.Peter fell back into the laws of Moses, insisting that if Gentiles wanted to follow Jesus, then they had to subscribe to Jewish law. Paul set him straight:
1 Corinthians 1
Divisions in the Church
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Galatians 2
Paul Opposes Peter
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2272
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | Yes, God realized that also......because of all the Bible writers...only Paul's writings received a warning about being misunderstood.
2 Peter 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. |
Brother Surfer, we have talked about this before. The threads are in the pages of the Bible Debate forum for all here to read. Peter wrote that Paul was "speaking in [his epistles] of these things,...". "These things" are the things Peter wrote about in chapter 3 of his second epistle. Peter was discussing a certain topic, which he said Paul also wrote about, and some of those things were difficult to understand and the more unlearned were prone to twisting them. Peter was not talking about every topic which Paul wrote about in everything he wrote.
You blindly ignore this so that you can use Peter's statement as a liscence to dismiss everything that Paul wrote that does not suit your Adventist doctrine, like Romans 7:7 and 2 Cor 3:7.
And a good point is made that we must keep in mind that Paul was Jewish. This is very significant. It does not mean that a Jewish gospel, with traditions carried forward from old testament Israel should be preached by Christians today. Entirely the opposite. Paul's calling of God as apostle to the Gentiles caused him to realize that the work of salvation which God was doing transcended Judaism and its traditions, transcended his nation and ethnic origin, and applied to all people of all types. He realized that the message of salvation could not be tied to traditions or teachings of one certain culture or religion. He understood that in the kingdom of God, there was no Jew or Greek, male or female, bond or free, etc. As Jesus chose tax collectors and zealots for disciples, causing the lion to lay down with the lamb, so the gospel message had to recognize no national, cultural or religious barriers.
So Paul de-Judaized the message of salvation, as part of fulfilling his call as apostle to the Gentiles. The gospel message applies as much to Gentiles without them having to become Jews or adopt Jewish customs, as it does to Jews. And it was because of the very fact that Paul was Jewish and so educated in the Jews' culture, traditions and religion that he of all people knew that Jewish customs could not be allowed to keep anyone out of the kingdom. God didn't recognize that boundary, and the message he preached could not either.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: |
He (Paul) realized that the message of salvation could not be tied to traditions or teachings of one certain culture or religion. He understood that in the kingdom of God, there was no Jew or Greek, male or female, bond or free, etc. As Jesus chose tax collectors and zealots for disciples, causing the lion to lay down with the lamb, so the gospel message had to recognize no national, cultural or religious barriers.
The gospel message applies as much to Gentiles without them having to become Jews or adopt Jewish customs, as it does to Jews. |
Poetry! Sheer poetry.
Hang in there Silver, I'm still praying for you!
(and I'm not just being sarcastic. i really am!)
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