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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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2 Tim. 3:16
Hi JB,
I am not sure if I understand your question
| JB wrote: | | One question that might be asked is this: “Does pasa mean all or every”in this text? |
The ESV translates it "all" over 835/1238 times it is used in the NT. How would it change the meaning?
Hello Yehushuan,
Are you sure you don't have this backwards Yehu.?
| Yehushuan wrote: | | Such a contrast, by the way Ragman, would show graphe in verse 16 was NOT meant to indicate the Septuagint (or the Hebrew Scripture) and hence the claim that verse 16 means the Old Testament fails. The contrast Would equate new writings (graphe) with traditional scripture (gramma). |
The word "scripture" in 2 Tim. 3:16 is "γραφὴ"
| Quote: | | γραφή, ῆς, ἡ (1) writing; (2) in the NT only of sacred writing scripture; used to designate the Scripture(s) as a whole or any particular part or single passage |
Friberg, T., Friberg, B., & Miller, N. F. (2000). Vol. 4: Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Baker's Greek New Testament library (101). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
γράμματα
| Quote: | | ράμμα, ατος, τό (1) literally what is written; (2) of the alphabet letter (GA 6.11); by extension plural γράμματα, of education letters, learning (JN 7.15); (3) as a piece of writing letter, document, book (AC 28.21); (4) as a promissory note record of debts, contract, account (LU 16.6) |
Friberg, T., Friberg, B., & Miller, N. F. (2000). Vol. 4: Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Baker's Greek New Testament library (101). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
| Quote: | Pronounced: skrip’-tur (Greek: he graphe, plural Greek: hai graphai): The word means "writing." In the Old Testament it occurs in the King James Version only once, "the scripture of truth," in Dan 10:21, where it is more correctly rendered in the Revised Version (British and American), "the writing of truth." The reference is not to Holy Scripture, but to the book in which are inscribed God’s purposes. In the New Testament, "scripture" and "scriptures" stand reg regarded as "inspired" (2 Tim. 3:16), "the oracles of God" (Rom. 3:2). Compare on this usage Matt. 21:42; 22:29; Mark 12:10; Luke 4:21; 24:27, 32, 45; John 5:39; 10:35; Acts 8:32; 17:2, 11; Rom. 15:4; 16:26, etc.; in Rom. 1:2, "holy scriptures."
See BIBLE.
The expression "holy scriptures" in 2 Tim. 3:15 the King James Version represents different words (Greek: hiera grammata) and is properly rendered in the Revised Version (British and American) "sacred writings." In 2 Pet. 3:16, the term "scriptur the Eppistle of Paul. In James 4:5, the words occur: "Think ye that the scripture speaketh in vain? Doth the spirit which he made to dwell in us long unto envying?" The passage is probably rather a summary of Scripture teaching than intended as a direct quotation. Others (e.g. Westcott) think the word is used in a wide sense of a Christian hymn.
— James Orr |
Orr, J. (.). The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
| Yehushuan wrote: |
Do you really think Paul cared about whether his episltes [sic] gained the religious stature of holy writ or not? |
I doubt that he ever even had the thought cross his mind, this has no bearing on God intentions though.
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2852
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | | Are you sure you don't have this backwards Yehu? |
Maybe, let me go look.
2Ti 3:15-16 KJV And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures (ιερα γραμματα), which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) All scripture (γραφη) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Nope, I think I got it right.
The author specifically identifies that his recipient “hast known the holy gramma” (G1121) “απο βρεφους” – from childhood. (BTW, KJV’s use of the word child is incorrect. βρεφους is Genitive to denote possession – thing’s of a child, and such possession is better signified by the world childhood.)
In that none of the New Testament documents would have been written at the time of Timothy’s childhood, the gramma (and holy gramma at that) would indicate the Hebrew Scriptures or the Septuagint.
That leaves graphe to describe any kind of “newly-God-breathed” writings, such as the book of Mormon (just kidding). Of course maybe the author considered the two words to be synonymous, but typically the word “likewise” would have been used to indicate this (και πασα γραφη). If they are synonymous, though, then graphe would Not mean the new writings, but the OT as Evee indicated.
But don’t be surprised if we find out one day that verses 16 and 17 were added into the text by a later scribe, who upon reading verse 15, decided to add in his own two cents, since the flow is choppy. Personally, my life is too short to become involved with sleuthing out variants in a text I consider likely to be forged anyway (written by a Catholic Priest in Paul’s name). But you might want to read chapter three really really fast, and see if the tone of verses 16 and 17 fit in. I don’t think they do. There is a unified flow between verse 1 and 15, and then BOOM, all of a sudden the feel of the text switches to some kind of sonorous bombastic grandeur (ALL SCRIPTURE, not just the Jewish ones you moron). And then ‘flick’ everything changes into chapter four.
And with all due respect to your listed sources, they seem to be rather “inbred.” I have found that many American Fundamentalist bible schools (and seminaries) have an overt agenda to champion (i.e. Word of God = Bible). Their Presuppositional Foundation clearly warps the conclusions of their academic work. And my apologies since I seem to have forgotten whether or not you’re such a bible school student. The Moody Bible Institute considers Wheaton College to be flaming liberal apostates and hence must consider Princeton Theological Seminary to host demonic tribunals.
| ragman13 wrote: | | I doubt that he ever even had the thought cross his mind, this has no bearing on God intentions though. |
Exactly. And if God intended for Jesus to write a book, He would have had him do so.
The bizarre thing is that the book championed by the Evangelical as the “thing to follow” says itself that one should follow something else (i.e. the pneuma).
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1057
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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ragman13,
If we use "all" rather than "every" we assume that all scripture (graphe {graf-ay') is totally inclusive.
If we use "every" rather than "all", we assume that only that which was regarded as scripture was being referenced to in this text.
Since 2 Timothy 3:16 was written by unassuming people. They believed that they were just writing a letter . They had no idea that in the future much of the world would embrace it as Holy writ. (Some do and some don't)
If it is determined that all graphe is inspired then one might assume that Paul was stating that his letter or in this case 2 Timothy was in fact scripture. I, for one, doubt that this would be the case.
This little detail can make a big difference as to whether we regard 2 Timothy as scriptures or as a letter.
JB |
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