Are the dead alive now

george · Tadpole Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 26 Location: ohio

Ragman, you have a point. If we die and the next thing we experience is the resurrection how would we know of the time interval between those two events? To the malefactor on the cross he would be in the kingdom the moment he awoke which would appear to be the very moment that he died. A clue would be in who was there with him and how much the things he now saw were changed.

Ryck · Lion King Joined: 05 Dec 2002 Posts: 1094

Ryck · Lion King Joined: 05 Dec 2002 Posts: 1094

ragman13 · German Shepherd Joined: 07 Jul 2007 Posts: 325

Yes they did Rev. 4:4. I have asked about it no less than 4 times already.
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle

Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist!

george · Tadpole Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 26 Location: ohio

Ragman,

I can’t say with any authority who the elders are in Revelation 4:4 but I would suggest that if we want to get a clue about the state of the dead human’s that would more likely to be what is covered in verses 9-11.

Rev 4: 9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

My interpretation of this passage is not the traditional view that these are vibrant disembodied human souls with some sort of intermediate body in heaven. Revelation is a vision and the message is conveyed using symbols. An in-depth word study can reveal that the ‘soul’ and ‘blood’ are interrelated. (See Lev 17:11 and De 12:23 in the original where they are declared synonymous.) In Genesis, it is Abel’s blood that cries out. Here in Revelation it is stated as the souls that are crying out. I believe the two are identical and here is why. The location of these souls is stated to be at the base or under the altar. That is where I’d expect blood to rest after it has stopped flowing down off an altar using blood sacrifice.

Now I have a further suggestion. One can question the location of the altar. Is it in heaven? I would suggest that no, it is on earth. The altar was not in the tabernacle but outside it. Jesus came to earth to die and shed his blood. These saints are those that also have shed their blood and died. It makes sense to understand that they too were sacrificed on the altar of the earth. Then for their soul (blood) to be under the altar would be consistent with their blood lying (resting) in the dust of the ground like Abel’s.

If you have time you might what to do this little exercise. Look up the word ‘soul’ in the original (nephesh) and than see where scripture consistently declares where it goes. I think you too will come away seeing that it goes down (not up). The concept of an immortal soul I find foreign to scripture but we each will have to make up our own minds.

Mattathias · Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:05 am Post subject:

Ryck · Lion King Joined: 05 Dec 2002 Posts: 1094

Mattathias · Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject:

Ragman.

Leon Morris made the following comments on the identity of the twenty-four elders in Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, The Revelation of St. John, Vol. 20, p. 88: