The Natural Gospel

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Thanks Silver Surfer. That's all okay with me. But it's just the tension and zeal about this particular issue that is still strange to me. I would like to expound a little, building on what you have stated, which is all correct.

Christ is Lord of the Sabbath, and therefore of the entire principle of the Sabbath, where you rest because God said to rest, and are blessed with the result of that obedience, as you quoted from in Isaiah. Christ is Lord over all of that.

Now consider the perspective of the Pharisees, which represent the doctrine-first perspective of religion, which is from the outside, in. They represent the slavery system that Jesus opposes by His nature. The Pharisees saw Jesus and His disciples picking corn and eating it, and they counted this as work, therefore against the Sabbath rule. But they were wrong in that judgment.

In correcting their error, Jesus went further into the explanation of how He sees the Sabbath. He explained that when there is a practical reason, which your natural understanding shows you is more important in that situation, then you don't need to hold on to the Sabbath rule. You should not make that rule become a principle of slavery that cuts off your natural understanding and desire to do good, since that was never God's intention for the Sabbath. So if your mule falls in a well, or whatever, or if you're in the corn field and hungry, then go ahead and do what you need to do. It's only natural.

Now bring it back to today. Me personally, I see all the time as the Sabbath. I do not see it as being limited to the seventh day or any day. Whenever I can, I practice the Sabbath, to the fullest degree that I can. Why? Because he that lives in the secret place (sabbath) of the Most High abides under the shadow of the almighty. I don't wait until any particular day of the week to do this.

So if you see me digging a drain or whatever on the seventh day, should you say that I am ignoring the Sabbath? Believe me, I am digging that drain because of the Sabbath principle, and I never do anything contrary to the Sabbath, no matter what day it is.

According to what Jesus has taught, this is the Way of life, to always seek first God's Kingdom, which is the Sabbath secret place. I personally cannot see the relevance of the seventh day when you look at life this way. Seventh day counting is for when you're working hard the other days; but I'm on Sabbath all the time. Aren't you?

Or is there something different about the seventh day beyond what I have said here? If so, please explain. First of all, are you on 24/7 sabbath, in the secret place of the Most High, like I described?

See, you have to live in the real world. I try to make weekends special, as most people in the world do. I try to set systems in place to keep my life organized, and I'm making progress. But in the end what happens happens. I just work here, you know... I don't make the rules. If I end up digging a drain on some particular day I won't let that worry me.

So basically it seems that this whole preoccupation with the seventh day is pretty much contrary to the principle of Sabbath... if you can see it that way. Seems like you're bothered unnecessarily, and that isn't restful.

Silver Surfer · Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject:

Perhaps I should explain why God is using the 7th day sabbath as a test for Christians......

Tests are part of our everyday experience. Airplanes are tested, cars are tested, nuts and bolts are tested....even people are tested.

This testing process is intended to relieve us of some of the stress of not knowing what a product or person will do when placed in service.

The purpose of testing is prediction.
What will happen if this man or woman practices medicine ?

What will happen if this car is put on the road ?

What will happen if this person teaches ?

What will happen if this airplane is put into the air ?

These are the kinds of questions that advance-testing attempts to answer in order to reduce the element of risk.
Testing people is much more difficult than testing products.

A demonstration of that problem may be seen in the United States legal system.

Parole boards that are supposed to certify that a criminal has been rehabilitaed and is safe to be released into society receives much criticism today, because in many cases their tests apparently fail.

There is a dismaying amount of repeat offenders, repetition of criminal acts by freed criminals. Innocent people become victims and are crying out for a better solution to the problem.

I am sure that the people on these parole boards are not insincere or irresponsible, because they must be as concerned as others about the safety of their own families.

I think the problem comes from an imperfect testing procedure, which results in many mistakes. It certifies as rehabilitated many criminals who in fact are not....rehabilited. As a result, society suffers, and the parole boards are criticized.

I believe that the greatest need in that situation is for better testing procedures whereby future human behavior can be predicted more accurately.

Is that not what is involved in Jesus Christ's present work ?

He is planning to release many criminals from a huge penitentiary, the earth. He plans to let these criminals enter the society of unfallen worlds. Revelation 12:12 says, "Rejoice ye heavens, and you that dwell in them".
Many worlds in which UNfallen beings live have never known the miseries of sin (the consequences of sin is, diseases of every discription, wars, starvation of little children, death of loved ones, pain and sufferings of everyday life, etc.). And these unfallen beings do not...want to know them !

So, the Lord is in a position of the parole board.
He needs a test whereby He can certify a criminal to be rehabilitated and is safe to release into the society of the universe at large.

It needs to be a test that the watching universe can observe and understand.

Now, consider what would be rerqiured of such a test.
#1.) It would need to be a test that could be used everywhere, in all parts of the earth.

#2.) It would ned to be a test that could be used for people of all ages and characteristics.

#3.) It would have to be fair in content, not based upon things that people have in different amounts.
If it were based upon money, for example, some people would be discriminated against.

If it were based upon property, talent, or education, the same would be true and the test would be unfair.

#4.) It would have to be fair in application, not requiring of people more than they are able to do.

#5.) The test would have to be unique so that motivation would be clear. If the Lord requires something for a test that people do for other reasons, issues are confused and the motive is unclear.

What is there in the world that meets all these criteria ?

I can think of only one thing that persons of all ages have in equal amounts, everywhere, and that is time !
In a given week, everyone has exactly the same number of days, hours, minutes, and seconds.

So, it would seem that time could be used for a test without discrimination against anyone.

But how could the test be set up ?

Could there be a requirement that a certain amount of work be done in a specific amount of time ?

That is an appealing idea, but quickly encounters problems of both discrimination and motivation.
Some cannot work, and some must work less than others for reasons beyond their control.

And regarding motivation, we can observe that people work for reasons that have nothing to do with religion or loyalty to Jesus Christ, because the benefits from work that are not religious in nature, such as the benefit of finacial gain, the benfit of exercise, and the benefit of something accomplished or produced.

So, motivation in a time-work test would be unclear, making the results of such a test doubtful and making it difficult to avoid discrimination.

What about recreational use of time ?

Again, some people are not able to engage in recreation, and some enjoy recreation, for reasons that have nothing to do with religion.

If we think of requiring a certain amount of time for study, or meditation, or self-improvment, the same problem would be present, to some degree.
In a test involving the use of time for any these reasons, discrimination would be difficult to avoid, and motivation would be unclear.

So, what do we have left ?

What about rest ?

Not everyone can work, but everyone can rest.
Although it might appear that motivation still would be unclear, since there are non-religious benefits from rest, there is a way to deal with this problem and make time spent in rest, an adequate test.

If it simply were required that a portion of time be used in rest, there would be benfits from resting that would not be religious in nature, and resting could be accmplished in a variety of ways to gain those benefits.
People could work half a day and rest half a day, or work one day and rest one day, or rest one day of each five or one day of six, or even seven, and gain the benefits of resting, even though they had nothing religious in mind at all.

BUT....there is something that could make resting a valid test.
If a requirement should be made that human beings rest during a specific time period that the Lord chooses, it would be a most adequate test because it would be arbitrary.

It would not be justified by reasoning or rationale...it would simply attest to the Lord's will !

If Christ were to single out one specific 24-hour period of the 168 hours that makes a week, and require that the entire human family use this time only, for rest, some risks would be involved.

What about the time when a crop is ready to be harvested, or seed is ready for planting and the weather conditions are right and might never be so again ?
What about work situations ?

What about the run of fish that occurs only on certain days ?
Or irragation water for the farm that comes only on certain days ?

Many situations would entail risks for the man or woman who would be required to use that time, and no other time, for rest .

And, observe that this requirement makes no appeal to reason whatsoever !

Rest appeals to reason, but a particular day of rest does not.
That is exactly what is needed, for the greatest test that a human being faces in relationship to God is this:
What do we do when God makes a requirement that we do not understand ?

"THAT IS THE GREATEST OF ALL TESTS"

This seems to me to be the question that the inhabitants of other worlds are most concerned about.
Try to visualize yourself as an inhabitant of a world where there never has been sin (No death of loved ones, no diseases, no wars, no pain or sufferings of any kind, no lying, no stealing, etc.).

You learn that Jesus is planning to release some rehabilited criminals on your planet. You would be justifed in asking some questions.

"Lord, do you think it is really safe to do this ?"
And the Lord can say, "I believe it is. But Judge for yourself. Let me ask this candidate for eternal life some questions and see what you think".
So the Lord ask the earthling some questions.
"We have a requirement that no one shall kill anyone else. Are you willing to obey that requirement ?"
The earthling relpies, "Why yes, that makes sense. That is reasonable. I will go along with that".
"The next requirement is that you shall not steal. What about that ?"

"Surely, that makes sense. I understand that. I will go along with that".
"You shall not bear false witness", Jesus says.
And the same answer is given. "Of course, that makes sense, that is reasonable. I'll cooperate".
And so on through the commandments, except the 4th, the Sabbath.

You then reply, "No Lord. He is not obeying you, he is agreeing with you.
In every case he will do your will because it appears to him to be reasonable.
But given his limited knowledge and his limited experience, it is entirely possible that there may be sometime be a requirement of the goverment of the universe that does not make sense to him.

What will he do then ?

That is what I want to know".
The Lord is able to answer, "I anticipated that problem and built into the 10 commandments, a question to cover it."

Pointing to the 4th commandment, He asks the earthling, "We have a requirement that the 7th day of the week shall be devoted to rest and to worship, rather than to your own inclinations, and pursuits.
What do you say about that ?"

The earthling may reply, "Lord, I clearly see the vaalue of resting. You can depend on me to rest. I will go along with that. BUT, as far as resting on a particular day is conbcerned, I do not see any reason why I should rest one day when another day might be more convenient for me."

I can hear you saying, "No Lord ! We do not want him here ! He is exalting his human reason above your requirement." It is a case of, "God Says, But I Think".
If, on the other hand, the earthling says in response to the Sabbath question, "I believe in resting. You can count on me to rest.

As far as the day of rest is concerned, it is not clear to me...why one day needs to be a particular day of rest...but it does not need to be clear to me, Lord; If that is what you want, than that settles it for me."
Then the Lord turns to you and asks, "What do you think ?"

I believe you would say, "I think he is all right. Let him come."
The supreme test of a person's relationship to God is what does that person do when the reason for one of God's requirements is not clear to him ?

The terrible problem of sin began when Eve was faced in the Garden of Eden with a requirement that did not make sense to her.

The forbidden tree looked much like the other trees.
The fruit was comparable to other fruit, and the serpent was eating it without apparent harm. Yet God had said not to eat that fruit.

It does not make sense, she thought, it just does not make sense.
Eve was faced with the decision, what did I do when the requirment of God does not make sense to be reasonable ?

And what Eve decided in essence was, I will obey God when his requirements seem reasonable to me, but when they do not seem reasonable, I will not obey them.
This attitude---I will obey God when I understand His requirements, and I will disobey Him when I do not understand His requirements----reflects the millions of people today who call themselves Christians.

It does not indicate a proper relationship with God !

Abraham faced the same test when the voice of the Lord, which he knew so well, he could not mistake it, said to him, "Take now thy son, thine only son, Isaac, whom thou loveth, and offer him on Mount Moriah, for a sacrifice."

To say that it did not make sense would be a massive understatement ! Because God had promised Abraham, that Isaac, would be the leader of a great nation in the future !

It seemed to Abraham an unbelieveable command.
Not only did it not appeal to his reason, but destroyed all his hopes and dreams.
Consequently Abraham, as did Eve, faced the critical test: What do I do when God gives a requirement that I do not understand ?

Abraham did not make the same descision Eve made.
Abraham did not say, "I will obey God when I understand, and I will disobey God when I do not understand."
Abraham said, "I will obey God whether I understand or not."

As a result, he became known as the, 'Father of the faithful', the role model for those who want to have a proper relatioship with the Lord Jesus Christ, a model of trust, faith, love, and submission to the will of God.

Jesus Christ faced the same test in Gethsemane.
He went into the garden troubled in heart because He knew the end was near. There it became clear to Him that something unbelievebly dreadful was to be a part of his test----absolute, total separation for God !

Then he said unto them, My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death, tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O Father, If it be possible, let this cup pass from me."(Matthew 26:38,39).
Three times He prayed that prayer !

What does that prayer mean ?
It means, "Father, I do not understand. Father, is it neccessary for you to withdraw from me ?
Sometimes we say (without really understanding), "He bore the sins of the weight of all our sins."
How few, if any, really understand what that means ?

It means rejection ! God hates sin so much....that if his own son takes on sin upon himself...God will turn away !
The Bible tells us: "But your iniquities (sin) have separated you from your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear", (Isaiah 59:2).
You know how painful rejection is ?

Rejection by the Almighty God in heaven brings the ultimate agony to a soul !

In the Garden of Gethsemane it became clear to Jesus that He must be rejected by His Father in order to bear the punishment of sinners. As He felt His relationship eith the Father being broken, He trembled and cried out in agony, "Why Father, is there no other way ? I do not understand."

The fate of the entire universe hung in the balance while he wrestled with the problem. And the universe won its reprieve when He nade the descision, "I will obey, even though I don't understand. 'Not my will, but thine be done'.

JESUS CHRIST PASSED THE GREATEST OF ALL TESTS !

As Jesus proved by His experience, the greatest test a human faces is not martyrdom. It is comparatively easy to surrender your life for that which you fully understand .
BUT....to surrender your will when you do not understand is a greater test !

The very test that must be met, by everyone, who wants to live in the Paradise of God, for all eternity.
The Sabbath rest is found in the very heart of the 10 commandment. It provides a tes of trust......a test of love....a test of submission to the will of God !

Resting is reasonable, BUT....resting on a particular day has no basis in reason.

And the Sabbath test provides a means by which every other being in the universe may know: What does a person do when he does not understand ?

Will he obey anyway ?

OR........Will he put his human reasoning powers
above...the command of God and disobey ?

In Revelation chapters 12-14, we are given a picture of that 'FINAL' confrontation----confrontation between the world and God's true church.

The final confrontation will be over this test !
The 'whole' world' will be called to make its decision: "Do I obey when I understand and also when I do not understand ?

The 7th-Dayness of the Sabbath will be the issue.
In Revelation chapter 7 we read that there will be a sealing process of those who pass the test.....a certification that these people are safe to save, to be released anywhere in the universe.

They have passed the test.....and their future behavior is predictable.

"HALLOW MY SABBATHS, AND THEY SHALL BE A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND YOU...THAT YOU...MAY KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD" (Ezekiel 20:20).
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Thanks Silver Surfer. That's well said, and does clear up a lot about why you feel it is so important. From a certain perspective, I can appreciate what you're saying.

But there seems to be a ring of religiosity in your tone, which would not be right. If you check my last post, my intention was to create a distinction between inside-out and outside-in traditions of understanding God. Would it be fair to say that your description sounds like a mingling of the two? How do you see it?

You see, correct doctrine cannot save your life, and it cannot make your life better. This is the Gospel of grace, that you are saved by grace, and not be obedience to doctrine. This is what I come on this board to proclaim, and it is what I was busy saying when you suddenly, out of nowhere, asked a question about the seventh day Sabbath.

You see, the concept of Sabbath begins with Christ, and He is Lord over the Sabbath, but the Sabbath is not Lord over Him. All of the statements you have made about the importance of the Sabbath are great. But all of this must be put into correct perspective, which is the key. You have not included that key in your explanations. This of course is troubling, and would make anyone wonder why you neglected the heart of the matter. Even after my last post tried to swing things online, you still haven't gotten all the way to the heart.

And again, this doesn't mean that you don't think about the heart... but you simply haven't stated it. Please let me know what you think about my views stated in the last post, and this one, about the heart as the source. Thanks.

Silver Surfer · Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject:

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Silver Surfer · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject:

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

You know, Silver Surfer, I get the feeling that you're really listening, so thanks a lot for that. This concept is a little tricky, so let's go slowly with it.

Doctrine means teaching. So God's word can be called a doctrine, which obviously is what we need to be listening to. So we are saved and redeemed by doctrine - God's doctrine. God's doctrine is not a human order, but a divine order. So it is not something that you follow according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.

When I was saying that doctrine cannot save us or help us, I was not talking about God's spiritual doctrine. I was speaking about doctrine in the common use of the word - as a system of beliefs, or a moral code, such as the Torah. A system doctrine or human doctrine is one that speaks to the flesh, such as the Torah - do this, don't do that, touch this, don't eat that, etc.

The key point to remember is that humanly speaking it is impossible to please God. Even a perfect human like Jesus cannot please God humanly speaking. His perfect humanity is worthless in God's eyes. Jesus obeyed God's human law (system doctrine) but that didn't help Him in any way. That was just a sign that He was pure.

When you believe in God, you obey the Torah (God's human doctrine). But that is something you do naturally, not from the outside, in. You don't have to calculate it or think about it to do it, you just do it because it's your nature. It's like breathing, or dancing, or music - if you think about it, you can't do it.

Please think about that last point. God's doctrine is spontaneous. But human doctrine (even the Torah, which is God's human doctrine) is worthless as far as bringing you to God or improving your life. That's like someone trying to time their breathing, or time a dance step using a computer. It won't work, because it can only be spontaneous and natural to work.

Those passages you quoted refer to God's spiritual doctrine (the Gospel). They do not refer to God's human doctrine, or any other human doctrine. What I stand against in proclaiming the supremacy of nature is any system of human doctrine (from God or from any other source). They are all false. God's human doctrine is technically true, but practically irrelevant. Therefore as far as a practical application of God's human doctrine (the Torah) such a teaching would be false.

See what I mean?

Silver Surfer · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject:

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

I am not desperately wicked. In fact I am good. Also, I know exactly what God-like love is like. I have seen it, and I live in it. I know God personally, and I know and have experienced, and continue to experience His love. God does not just attempt to reveal love to me. He has succeeded, and continues to succeed to reveal love to me, in me and through me, naturally.

Let's discuss a few Biblical references, if it's okay?

"We are the righteousness of God in Christ."

"God has redeemed us to do good works."

There seems to be some confusion here between the inner man, and the physical man. I would like to recommend Romans 7 as a chapter that really deals with this topic in depth.

Paul explains that as far as the inner man he is in line with God's wishes and word. He loves the law, without apology. This is a pure, perfect love and devotion, without blemish.

Paul explains that from the outward perspective he misses the mark, but this is not to reflect on him personally. He says: "If I do what I do not want to do, then it is not me doing it, but the sin that is in me." The sin is not in him, but in his body. This does not reflect on him.

Jesus also took sin into his body. He took the sins of the world into His body through His ministry and condemnation by the world, then His crucifixion. This is not to say that He became a sinner, but that His body took sin into itself.

The believer is in the same boat as Jesus. Paul explains that there is sin in his body, from the external perspective. But he explains that it is not his sin. It's just the way things are. He is doing things that physically are not right, but it's not his fault. It's the way his body is set, just like how Jesus body set on the cross was in a sinful position, as far as the physical positioning (God's human doctrine).

So we must learn to think of ourselves as we really are, and not as the world sees us. This is the whole purpose of the Natural Gospel, which God sends in the person and ministry of Jesus and His followers. It is wholly incorrect to think of yourself in carnal terms, as a sinner. This is how the world reasons.

Unfortunately, just about every church that calls itself Christian teaches just what you have stated. True Christians who know God actually teach such false, and anti-Christian thinking! The problem is that "for lack of knowledge [of nature] God's people suffer and die [physically]". But Jesus says: "I come that you may live and have life more abundant". By learning the truth about nature, we speak the truth and are set free, and freedom is the power to live an abundant life, never as a slave, even to the slightest degree.

So we declare emancipation, and natural law for protection and freedom in God's name.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

There are many things that the doctrinist teachers (pastors and churches) cannot explain. Here is one:

On the sixth day God made man, and He looked and say that it was good. Man was good. So how come a good man became bad, and obeyed Satan instead of God?

See, to understand how this is possible, you cannot think in terms of doctrine. A good man (according to doctrine thinking) obeys good doctrine. But here we have Adam disobeying doctrine thinking.

They deal with issues such as this by answering without answering. They'll say: "This is possible because Adam was good, then became bad". Yeah, but how?

For me, it is simply that Adam went against God's spoken words, but he never went against God's full word. God knew that Adam couldn't understand His word about the tree, so that's why God sent Satan to deceive Adam into taking the fruit. That way Adam could fall and learn to know God.

If you never fall you can never get up and live.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

For anyone who may be interested, I'm going to re-introduce the natural Gospel from basics.

Nature means the way a thing is - the truth about it. The truth about man is that God is the source of all creation. The visible world of bodies, emotions, feelings and thoughts all come from the invisible - God's word. For us, our nature is the nature of a soul - spirit manifest materially as living flesh.

God's word is true religion, which frees the divine nature of a man. But false religion is an animal, the Bible calls it the Beast. This false religion teaches us to think as an animal - carnally.

A religion is a whole way of thinking, and not just a set of beliefs. The way of the Beast and the Way of Truth are two totally opposed ways of conceiving who we are, what we are, what we are doing, and why we are here (what our nature is). They both deal with every element of life, except that the Truth says the truth about our nature. False religion simply tells a lie about our nature.

God's word tells us the truth about who we are, and why we are here - the truth about nature. All the confusion that came from thinking like a beast is put away when we realize the truth about who we are - Children of God. The Natural Gospel teaches that we are Children of God, and can learn to realize that identity in every element of our practical lives.

When we study God's word we don't study ideas, concepts or systems of doctrine. We study God by studying ourselves and examining ourselves according to the word of nature. We don't go with unnatural systems, but always learn from nature, and study to discover more. We practice and train ourselves to think more naturally. We teach our children the natural culture that Jesus and God live. We stand against religionism, doctrinism, and all the divisive traditions of the Babylonian world system, which scatters before the mighty authority of Nature.

So in the Natural Gospel it is revealed as prophesied that "you shall speak the truth and the truth shall set you free". Also it is revealed as prophesied about the detractors to this knowledge: "I shall not judge you, but your own words will judge you," and again: "Moses will judge you" (Moses stands for the principle of words as a judge).

All the different religions and the christian churches for the most part today, based on the oppressive Roman Catholic tradition they inherited, promote a doctrinistic system of religion, and not Truth. They have some element of Truth, which is great, but they don't teach the full Natural Gospel. Only by renouncing all oppressive systems, and unreservedly proclaiming the supremacy of natural law, natural order, and natural salvation can we move forward.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Have you realized how important language is? It shapes the way you think. Knowledge for a human being is actually a set of relationships that you keep stored in your brain, which is your concept of how things work. And language represents a major part of this set of relationships.

God wants to teach us His Way of thinking, and His language as well. This way, we can identify ourselves, and God. We can know God as He wants us to know Him, and we can all unite, and see ourselves and each other within the context of God's Way of thinking. That, my friends, is the constitution of a little place called Zion. And she is in our hearts, and before our faces now, this day.

The Natural Gospel is the creed of our nation. Through the power of words, teaching the language of God, and learning His mindset, we become transformed to His image of who we are supposed to be. We become who we are meant to be - natural. This is a natural process from beginning to end, since we're naturally learning about our True Nature.

Visualize the building of a City - foundations, walls, gates... Consider how a tree grows from a seed, roots into the earth and the stem growing into the sky. The kingdom of God is like this. We are building our Kingdom, by God's power. This is our home, and it is our nature to build a home to live in, where we can be free, at peace, in security.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Isn't what Ray J is doing against some rules admin guys?

Spamming the board. I've seen the same post on different threads, and the post has nothing to do with the subject of the threads.

Nobby · Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:34 am Post subject:

Virbrate, yes it is!
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