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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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I believe in the God Most High, creator of heaven and earth and in His only begotten son, Yeshua, (Jesus the Christ). I believe that the coming of Yeshua was Prophesied in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New. Yeshua came to bring salvation to His people because of their great sin against God.
Trinities were the belief system of Pagans living in countries surrounding Israel at the time of Yeshua. Yeshua Himself was an Israelite as were all the Apostles including Paul.
There were 2 factions at war within the church, the church in Israel was led by James and Peter, made up of Israelites, the church outside of Israel led by Paul was composed of Pagan congregations. The Pagan congregations, with the help of Emperor Constantine won out over the Israelite Christians and the Catholic Church was born. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | This is what happens when you try to see things according to confused labels. Trinitarian, Unitarian, blah blah, it's a bunch of empty babble from Babylon.
God created the earth, and human beings. He never created something called a Trinitarian or Unitarian or any of the other mess, or even the churches that call themselves Christian.
What God has created is the Way, which is right and natural for a man. That is what we need to be talking about instead of empty labels that confuse issues. |
There was ALWAYS one God, Virbate. The problem was with humans who strayed away from the True God and followed many other gods. Then you have those that want to cover their bases and spin the wheel in both directions at the same time: Let's have more than one god but let's believe they all add-up to One True God.
Keep it simple and let's all stick to the original idea! God is One Himself!  |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | Virbate wrote: | This is what happens when you try to see things according to confused labels. Trinitarian, Unitarian, blah blah, it's a bunch of empty babble from Babylon.
God created the earth, and human beings. He never created something called a Trinitarian or Unitarian or any of the other mess, or even the churches that call themselves Christian.
What God has created is the Way, which is right and natural for a man. That is what we need to be talking about instead of empty labels that confuse issues. |
There was ALWAYS one God, Virbate. The problem was with humans who strayed away from the True God and followed many other gods. Then you have those that want to cover their bases and spin the wheel in both directions at the same time: Let's have more than one god but let's believe they all add-up to One True God.
Keep it simple and let's all stick to the original idea! God is One Himself! |
Thanks Ryck. It is possible that you didn't read my earlier post about the Trinity issue, where I explained that it is all just arguing about words. Have you ever really sat down and listened to someone who goes by the label of "Trinity believer"? Have the ones who are arguing with you ever really listened to what you are saying? You guys are just arguing different sides of an equation.
Neither side is willing to step back and consider long enough to realize that there is really no point of division, except in your minds.
God is one doesn't conflict with Jesus and the Holy Spirit being God. But you guys are arguing over words and labels. In the world of words and labels there is a big conflict there, but in the real world, of truth, there is no conflict between those perspectives. They are both elements of the same reality. God is One, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are expressions of that same being.
For you to continue thinking that this is about saying there are three God's, or God is not one shows you're not taking the time to consider.
Your response to the above claim is to point out the evidence to show that Jesus is not "the same" as God, the Father. So you can show that Jesus is not omniscient, nor omnipotent, and you can show that He referred to God in the third and second persons, and so on. But none of that gets to the point I raised above. Your detractors then continue arguing with you, instead of stepping back to realize that you guys are arguing two different points.
It's a miserable circle of endless arguing. Both sides should relax and listen instead. |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | Neither side is willing to step back and consider long enough to realize that there is really no point of division, except in your minds.
... but in the real world, of truth, there is no conflict between those perspectives. They are both elements of the same reality. God is One, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are expressions of that same being. |
Is there really no difference between the one-person God of Judaism and the three-person God of (orthodox) Christianity?
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | Is there really no difference between the one-person God of Judaism and the three-person God of (orthodox) Christianity? |
For me personally, I don't think of myself as belonging to any group called -ist or -arian, or whatever... but I know God. And I see God in everything.
So the tree and the rock are God, since they are His creation, but they do not contain His full identity. As far as the Holy Spirit and Christ, these are God in the fullest sense, since God's character and nature are contained there. This is exactly the same as what the old time prophets knew.
I tried talking to some people earlier on this site about the issue. They kept saying that God refers to Jesus in the third person, and vice versa. And they showed the times when Jesus spoke in ways that create a distinction between Himself and the Father - such as "the time and the hour no-one knows... not the Son, but only the Father". And I tried telling them that this is not relevant to the point, but they didn't understand what I was saying.
I explained that there are two types of mathematics - finite and infinite. In infinite mathematics, it makes sense for a man to be God, even though He talks to God, and doesn't know everything that God knows. In my view this whole thing is a problem of people arguing over words. So in that argument I'll have to say that both sides are wrong, since they're arguing over words, not reality. |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | | So the tree and the rock are God, since they are His creation, but they do not contain His full identity. |
I suspect that we'll find Trinitarians and Unitarians unified in reaction to this proposition.
| Quote: | | As far as the Holy Spirit and Christ, these are God in the fullest sense, since God's character and nature are contained there. This is exactly the same as what the old time prophets knew. |
Would you say then that mankind is God in the fullest sense?
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | Virbate wrote: | | So the tree and the rock are God, since they are His creation, but they do not contain His full identity. |
I suspect that we'll find Trinitarians and Unitarians unified in reaction to this proposition. |
My doctrinist spidey sense just gave a twinge. I wonder if you're going to say that I said that I worship the tree and the rock? I know that people are actually out there reading that into my words... Just to clarify, I was simply saying that those things represent God, and stem from God. What reaction is it that you think the various -arians would be unified in?
| Mattathias wrote: | | Quote: | | As far as the Holy Spirit and Christ, these are God in the fullest sense, since God's character and nature are contained there. This is exactly the same as what the old time prophets knew. |
Would you say then that mankind is God in the fullest sense? |
There are so many levels to this, that I know they'll try to trap me if I answer without a prologue... but now it's safe... here goes:
God knows everything. So it's correct to say that Jesus wasn't equal to God in that sense. Still He is God in character. Note that God is a person, and a person is defined by His character, or nature. So Jesus is fully God, even though He was not always in that position. Anyone who knows Jesus is also God, in the same way.
When you see God as He is, as a person (a spirit) then you will know that you are God. But if you think of God in human terms, then you will not see the oneness, since your terms of reference will be incorrect. This is what they do when they say that Jesus spoke to God therefore He is not God. |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | | I wonder if you're going to say that I said that I worship the tree and the rock? I know that people are actually out there reading that into my words... |
No. You didn't say that you worship the tree and the rock, or advocate that anyone else should.
| Quote: | | Just to clarify, I was simply saying that those things represent God, and stem from God. |
I would say that they represent the creative activity of God. I share your belief that they stem from God. Thanks for the clarification.
| Quote: | | What reaction is it that you think the various -arians would be unified in? |
I think Trinitarians and Unitarians would find agreement in saying that God is not the creation. The rock is not God, the tree is not God. They are things that God brought into existence.
| Quote: | | There are so many levels to this, that I know they'll try to trap me if I answer without a prologue... but now it's safe... here goes: |
Thanks for taking this on. It isn't my intention (I can't speak to the intention of others) to trap you. I'm very interested in hearing what you (and others) believe and why you (and they) believe it.
_________________
"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Mattathias. I appreciate your attitude, and your calming words. Living in such a time as this we have to be careful with what we say, because there are many who try to trap you. They do this to discredit you and get the mob hyped against you. They have been taught to think in carnal, doctrinist terms, and this makes them easily become the enemy of the one who teaches the truth.
I am working hard to learn to be diplomatic and bridge the gap between the natural tradition and those who are caught up in the divisive doctrinism system. Every day we get closer, and they get to learn more about nature. It is inevitable that the natural order will win out, and our progress will only snowball. We have nature, even the very nature and hearts of our brothers caught up in the various forms of doctrinism, on our side.
Please keep asking questions; I hope that your interest remains keen.
Basically the Natural approach is a radical Gospel, looking at the heart always as the source, and never giving in to the carnal desire to hold onto doctrine and make it God. That problem is the root of all evil, since the love of money is the root of all evil, and doctrine is the largest currency in nature.
What the devil has done is simply put doctrine before God, and the Sons of Adam did not have the authority of knowledge of the Gospel, so they fell for that trick. Today, through the power of the Natural Gospel brought by Jesus and His followers, and by the prophets who came before, we overcome this illusion, and stand strong in our correct natural authority.
I love to talk about the true, natural way, and the inevitable victory of God's word over the lies of the Babylonian system. This victory is the defining principle of our age, and those who understand it never tire of teaching, preaching and celebrating the truth of the Natural Gospel, which is now revealed. |
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