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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 959
Location: All over the western U.S.
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 Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Unfortunately I have to disagree with Dust |
Yes, I am offering but a glimmer of hope, especially since I don't know the parties involved. Rev, you seem knowledgeable about the problems of alcoholism with-in a family. I like your recommendation that both husband and wife take part in the recovery process.
In this particular situation the wife has already moved on. She has a new love. At this point she is not interested in patching things up. Why go to counseling. After 18 years of marriage, she believes she has found greener pastures.
Evee, If your friend's husband is truly sincere, then the best thing you can do for your friend is help her to see things clearly.
If you can help accomplish that, then RevJP's recommendation is the next step.
You have been her friend for 20 years, don't let 'Joe I-Do-Married-Women' be the only one who has her ear.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Several replies so I'm going to split my responses up so it's not such a long post. Thanks so much for all your help everybody. It's really helping me sort my head.
| Pete wrote: | | The worst thing that could happen is for your friend, not only to reject her husband, but by carrying on an affair in his absence is unexusable. |
Actually, her husband rejected her first. I know that's not an excuse, nor is it meant to be. I just want to set the facts straight. I guess in her mind he rejected her, walked out & now she really likes life w/o him in it. I agree that carrying on an affair is unexusable. Some people think though that if you're seperated, it's not really an "affair". That's where me & her bat heads. You & I both know it is, but trying to tell her that is like butting heads against a wall.
| Pete wrote: | | She has probably put the final nail in the coffin as far as their marriage is concerned, and as far as her husband's attempt to hit the sraight and narrow. |
Some turn of events this past week. She called me yesterday to inform me that he has been calling her all week, telling her how much he's changing & that he wants this marriage & is getting help, etc., etc. She believed him. He wanted a commitment from her that she was in this marriage 100% or else he was walking away from her. She, being hurt by his past actions, informed him that she had to see some action first on his part in order for her to believe his words. He hasn't gotten in therapy or AA yet, so all this talk is just talk right now. I don't blame her. I would've liked to have seen action as well on his part.
Well, yesterday he had come in w/his brother in-law while just the children were there to get the beer tap out of their garage. He showed up drunk & slurring his words. The kids told my friend when she got home. Some changing. 
| Pete wrote: | | Things could get really nasty down the line. |
I know. I'm preparing myself in case I have to run over there for some reason. This girl is like my sister & I am very protective of her. Although I'm angry w/her for what she's done lately, I still love her & care what happens to her & those kids. Right now, my compassion for her husband has slipped away after his latest incident. It just shows me that he won't change until something drastic happens.
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Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| 11 wrote: | The best thing you can do for your friend(s) is LISTEN.
They are both hurting, not to mention the children.
Listen and be there for them - without judgement. |
That's what I've been trying to do. I listen & then try to guide the best way I know how. She usually just tells me she's calling to vent anyway. So I let her vent.
My main concern at this point are those kids. Both she & him are resilient & can move on quickly, but those children will have scars w/them for a very long time. I know, I'm an adult child of an alcoholic. I know what it's like. So I try to talk to them a lot to find out where their heads are. The boy's very open. The girl's not & is starting to rebel. I'm worried about them.
| 11 wrote: | | It is admirable that you feel compasion for the abusive husband as well, however he needs to get his act together before returning to his wife and children. Jesus kept a very high regard for women, and despite the fact that God doesn't like divorce, He would not advocate this woman and her children being abused by this man. |
This is what I've told both of them. I don't want her to work things out w/him if he's not going to receive help for his alcoholism & abusiveness. I've told him he needs to be in therapy or there's no chance their marriage will work, ever. He seemed to understand that until his latest actions told me otherwise.
| 11 wrote: | | Loyalty to friendship does not include being pulled into their problems. Just like a lifeguard is not expected to drown with the victim, don't put yourself in that position. |
I keep telling myself that. I'm not trying to drown w/them.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: |
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This is a tough situation and easy for sides to be taken and fingers to be pointed.
The objective reality is, based on what you've told us, is that both parties share fault in these problems, and the difficulties they now face would most likely have resulted without the specter of alcoholism.
It appears to me as if both parties are so wrapped up in their own wants, and entangled in their own webs of mental and emotional problems, that it may indeed be best for them to go their separate ways to recover individually and then consider coming back together after they both grow up a bit.
On the husband's side; it is sad to say that things will most likely go much worse for him before they get better. I could go on for pages about the reasons why, his mental state, etc. but it will serve no purpose. If he is still drinking then he has no interest now in stopping, and it may well take the destruction of his marriage and the absence of his wife and family to wake him up, it may unfortunately take something much worse than that. Truth be told, it may never happen.
She is simply substituting one problem for another and this gives me the impression that she is in the midst of a 'drama' addiction - not uncommon for the spouses of addicts/alcoholics. One problem they have dealt with for so long goes away and they create another to replace it because they cannot cope with life without drama.
Anyway, like I said, I could speak for hours on the subject but it is best to dedicate any meaningful responses directly to you and your situation Evee:
Be there as a friend, provide prayer, but do it at a distance and keep yourself from getting sucked in to the quagmire that is their life. Nothing you can do will solve their problems and like I stated before, it will eventually damage your relationship with her, and them, and bring unnecessary strife into your own life.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Ok, let's all be honest here for a second.
There is no doubt that this woman and her children have been hurt, but it is also my experience that no alcoholic's problem is drinking, but drinking because they have a problem.
1) What actually brought the two of them to this point?
2) Can they face whatever it was, and resolve it?
3) If not, then your girlfriend needs to stop being a coward. Because part of going into another man's arms is the passive aggressive factor. "You screwed me, so now I'm gonna screw you."
If your girlfriend wants to end it with her ex, then she needs to be upfront and make that legal. But if she wants to save this marriage, she needs to knock it off with the boyfriend.
Either way, this sneaking around nonsense is nothing but distruction to all the parties involved.
Tell her to grow up and take a stand one way or the other.
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | It may sound harsh, but if she is not seeking help, professional help, then the only thing solved by you standing by her side is for her to have a person to dump all her woes upon. It solves nothing in the long or short term and will only enable her to worse behavior and destroy any chance of a continuing friendship.
Just tell her: "I am your friend, and I am here to support you, if you get professional help. When you do that feel free to call upon me at any time." |
She is looking into attending Alanon groups w/the children. She realizes that the children need someone to talk to professionally & I informed her that the Alanon group will be very helpful for her.
| Dust wrote: | | The good news is your friend’s husband is finally willing to buck-up and take care of his problem for the sake of his family. |
No he's not. Read the latest turn of events w/the beer tap.
RevJP,
I appreciate the stats on alcoholism. They've been big help. I myself lived w/a father who was an alcoholic. My mother never left him. We never attended Alanon. I grew up w/resentment toward my father & I thought my mother was the hero.
| JP wrote: | | This is a tough situation and easy for sides to be taken and fingers to be pointed. |
This is so true. I find myself "siding" w/my friend b/c of everything I've witnessed over the past 20 years. I think my experience w/alcoholism also plays a role in that. I'm trying for it not to, but it's rearing its ugly head unfortunately. 
| RevJP wrote: | | The objective reality is, based on what you've told us, is that both parties share fault in these problems, and the difficulties they now face would most likely have resulted without the specter of alcoholism. |
I'm not so sure about that. This kind of relates to 11's questions:
| 11 wrote: | 1) What actually brought the two of them to this point?
2) Can they face whatever it was, and resolve it? |
My friend's husband has drank ever since they've been married. It's just gotten worse as the years went on. A bit of a background if I may:
My friend (C I'll call her) used to weigh a good bit after having children & never losing the weight. Her husband consistently called her "fat girl". He would tell her that she wasn't attractive anymore & belittle her in front of others. She was a stay at home mom for a very long time, keeping the house clean, making sure the supper was on the table, the whole nine yards. She was the "perfect" wife if there can be such a thing. What he said goes is pretty much the gist of it. Looking back, I see a very controlling man.
A few years ago, C had gastro surgery to lose weight. She slimmed down & has attracted a lot of attention from other men. Not that she's willfully attracting the attention; she just gets it b/c of how "hot" she looks. Her husband makes comments all the time about her "flirting" w/other men. She really doesn't. Well, maybe a little. But, she is a very friendly person, always has been. I see C's husband J as having little self-esteem b/c he knows he treats her badly & is very scared of losing her to someone who will treat her better.
When we come over for a cookout, we discover that J has been drinking since the morning. When we get there, he usually ends up stumbling around, knocking things over, being nasty to her, belittling her, etc. One time my husband had to help him up b/c J fell into the table & chairs in the basement. C gets very embarrassed & is constantly apologizing for him. When the two would go out together, he would get drunk & repeat the behavior, so she stopped going out w/him. Now she goes by herself w/friends so she can actually have a good time.
This latest incident of the DUI only is the straw that broke the camel's back. I could see this coming for years. You know how it is trying to get an abused wife to leave her husband though. I think maybe the "drama addiction" just might apply here JP.
| 11 wrote: | | If your girlfriend wants to end it with her ex, then she needs to be upfront and make that legal. |
She really is confused at this point. She wants to believe things will be different, believe his words, but then his actions prove otherwise & she's left with the thought, "Things will never change. I need to get out." Money is extremely tight b/c he refuses to pay child support. She had to take him to court to start the process. Asking him wasn't cutting it. He told her that if the kids refuse to see him (which they have b/c of everything they've seen him do), he won't pay for them. She wants to be completely done w/him at this point I think. But, getting a divorce is costly & she just doesn't have the funds. He said he will get it done, but relying on him to keep his word is impossible.
I pray everything turns out for the best. I don't want to see her hurt anymore & I don't want those kids to be taught the wrong values. My heart breaks for this family.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| 11 wrote: | | If your girlfriend wants to end it with her ex, then she needs to be upfront and make that legal. |
| Evee wrote: |
She really is confused at this point. She wants to believe things will be different, believe his words, but then his actions prove otherwise & she's left with the thought, "Things will never change. I need to get out." Money is extremely tight b/c he refuses to pay child support. She had to take him to court to start the process. Asking him wasn't cutting it. He told her that if the kids refuse to see him (which they have b/c of everything they've seen him do), he won't pay for them. She wants to be completely done w/him at this point I think. But, getting a divorce is costly & she just doesn't have the funds. He said he will get it done, but relying on him to keep his word is impossible.
I pray everything turns out for the best. I don't want to see her hurt anymore & I don't want those kids to be taught the wrong values. My heart breaks for this family. |
And my heart breaks for you Evee, because it is evident that this is really getting to you.
Your girlfriend needs a good swift kick in the butt!
Tell her to close her legs long enough to think clearly.
She seeing another guy, but she's hesitating because a divorce is costly.
Decide darlin!!!
If you want this guy out of your life, then make it legal!!!
But she is shooting herself in the foot, because if her husband can prove adultery, forget child support or alimony.
It is time for your girlfriend to stop being so selfish, and get her head straight, at least for the sake of the kids.
I KNOW loneliness is a terrible thing - believe me, I have traveled that road. But she needs to get her priorites straight, otherwise she is dooming herself and her children to a life of poverty.
Get it together!!! Sex isn't everything!!!
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| 11 wrote: | | And my heart breaks for you Evee, because it is evident that this is really getting to you. |
Thank you. It is getting to me. I love this family. They're my family as well. She's like my sister.
| 11 wrote: | If you want this guy out of your life, then make it legal!!!
But she is shooting herself in the foot, because if her husband can prove adultery, forget child support or alimony. |
I agree. It's hard to save for a divorce when there isn't any money to pay the necessary bills. She did take in a boarder (her cousin) to help pay the bills though. Which will help. Maybe she can set aside a little at a time for a divorce attorney.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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So where does it stand as of now?
Is she going for the divorce?
Any possibility of reconciliation?
What's happening?
_________________
Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 608
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Just a thought:
What is all this teaching their kids?
We have two adults acting with complete lack of responsibility, with it all out there for their kids to learn from.
Someone needs to call them on this.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | So where does it stand as of now?
Is she going for the divorce?
Any possibility of reconciliation?
What's happening? |
I believe the divorce is going through. J said he is the one filing. We'll see. She doesn't have $700 to pay an attorney. She did file for child support. That's all I know right now. I've been more worried about myself right now.
| Shardikson wrote: | Just a thought:
What is all this teaching their kids?
We have two adults acting with complete lack of responsibility, with it all out there for their kids to learn from.
Someone needs to call them on this |
I tried but neither is listening to me. So I'm taking JP's advice & others here & stepping aside. What she chooses to do is on her. I will always be her friend & never turn my back on her, but she knows I won't encourage her to keep cheating on her husband, even if there's no chance of them working it out. At this point, truthfully, I don't want them to work things out either. I know that once he comes back, the cycle will just start all over again b/c it's happened before. As far as the kids are concerned, I check in w/them regularly to make sure they're okay.
As far as I know, Alanon is being checked out for her & the kids. It'll help them tremendously. I wish I'd have done it when I faced alcoholism in my childhood.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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