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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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 Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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gee really? there's a perfectly logical and scientific reason to explain northern polar ice cap melting that doesn't debunk the increasing ice cap depths at the South Pole?...and doesn't debunk the fact that global average temp rise peaked sometime around 1998? huh...it's like actual scientists were actually conducting science and stuff...wow...what a wacky world 
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Key of Twilight
Big Hamster
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming |
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| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | I don`t think God is pleased that we pollute the air this much, South-Africans are not so guilty, we actually share electricity, but we still pollute the air. I think the Americans are the most guilty, or maybe it`s India? Do not know! how ever I think we should discuss solutions.
Any Comments?
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I agree that God is not pleased. Though this world is not our own, this life and this planet are gifts to us from God. How should God feel that we are polluting and possibly doing irreversible harm to the planet he gave to us.
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Nowhere does the Bible state that the sexual orientation of homosexuality is sinful — it merely instructs anyone, gay or straight, that any sexual act that does not spring from a place of love, respect and commitment to the other person involved is sinful. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5693
NASA Discovers 70% Of Global Climate Due To Pacific Ocean Oscillations - Not CO2
That article follows on the heals of a noted British climatologist (and 3rd Viscount of something or the other) also coming to a similar conclusion....
personally, I'm gonna mix up a huge plate of crow to serve up to the alarmists 
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“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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ok...since I started dropping this in the political discussions.....Let's have a thread revival!!!
| Quote: |
From NASA yesterday:
Sept. 30, 2008: Astronomers who count sunspots have announced that 2008 is now the "blankest year" of the Space Age.
As of Sept. 27, 2008, the sun had been blank, i.e., had no visible sunspots, on 200 days of the year. To find a year with more blank suns, you have to go back to 1954, three years before the launch of Sputnik, when the sun was blank 241 times.
"Sunspot counts are at a 50-year low," says solar physicist David Hathaway of the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center. "We're experiencing a deep minimum of the solar cycle." |
Why does this matter?
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Sunspots are magnetic storms on the sun’s surface that are used as a proxy measure for the Sun’s interplanetary magnetic field. As Henrik Svensmark and Fred Singer argue, the Sun’s magnetic field effects cloud formation in the Earth’s upper atmosphere. The more magnetically active the sun is, the fewer cosmic rays reach our upper atmosphere. When cosmic rays do reach the Earth, they react with atmospheric gases to free nuclei that help seed cloud formation, cooling the Earth’s surface.
No sunspots = more clouds = lower temperatures.
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linky
Hmm...if only someone had a test that would prove or disprove theory a versus theory b....hmmmmm....Wait! A Canadian Scientist to the RESCUE!
Article truncated for space by me...linky provided at bottom.
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A Canadian scientist says the largest known hole in the ozone will occur over the South Pole in the next week. If that happens, it will help us understand global warming.
Dr. Qing-Bin Lu, of Canada’s University of Waterloo, says NASA satellites and laboratory measurements show cosmic rays are the real cause of the seasonal hole in the earth’s ozone layer over the Antarctic....
... The number of cosmic rays hitting the earth varies sharply based on the activity level of the sun and the size of the magnetic wind it projects out into space. A weak sun means a weak magnetic wind and more cosmic rays striking earth. Britain’s BBC recently reported that the solar wind is now blowing at the weakest rate in more than 50 years, and is also 13 percent cooler than it was 15 years ago.
The ozone layer is important because it absorbs most of the sun’s high-frequency ultraviolet light, protecting us from skin cancers and cataracts. In the 1980s, eco-activists told us the hole in the Antarctic ozone had been caused by man-made chemicals released from the chlorofluorocarbons once used in our refrigerators and air conditioners.
Fear of losing the ozone layer’s health protection led to the Montreal Protocol, which has banned CFCs since 1989. But the ban failed to change behavior of the ozone layer over the Antarctic.
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“This finding [reduction of chlorine compounds], combined with laboratory measurements, provides strong evidence of the role of cosmic-ray-driven reactions in causing the ozone hole, and resolves the mystery of why a large discrepancy between the sunlight-related photochemical model and the observed ozone depletion exists,” says Lu.
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If the South Pole gets an ozone-hole maximum in the coming weeks, it will strengthen the case for cosmic rays, and endorse a Modern Warming driven by solar variations rather than human-emitted CO2. The solar model is already endorsed by oxygen isotopes in ice cores from both Greenland and the Antarctic, by microfossils in the sediments of nine oceans and hundreds of lakes worldwide, and by cave stalagmites from every continent plus New Zealand.
The case for a solar-driven climate is also strengthened by a drop in global temperatures over the past 18 months: The temperature decline had been forecast by the sunspot index since 2000, but was not predicted by the global climate models. |
linky
and...P#s dismissed the credibility of this article in 5.....4.....3.....2....
'cuz we all know that "consensus" trumps actual scientific process all the time....
/sing...Only Time will tell....
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Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
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“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | ok...since I started dropping this in the political discussions.....Let's have a thread revival!!!
| Quote: |
From NASA yesterday:
Sept. 30, 2008: Astronomers who count sunspots have announced that 2008 is now the "blankest year" of the Space Age.
As of Sept. 27, 2008, the sun had been blank, i.e., had no visible sunspots, on 200 days of the year. To find a year with more blank suns, you have to go back to 1954, three years before the launch of Sputnik, when the sun was blank 241 times.
"Sunspot counts are at a 50-year low," says solar physicist David Hathaway of the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center. "We're experiencing a deep minimum of the solar cycle." |
Why does this matter?
| Quote: |
Sunspots are magnetic storms on the sun’s surface that are used as a proxy measure for the Sun’s interplanetary magnetic field. As Henrik Svensmark and Fred Singer argue, the Sun’s magnetic field effects cloud formation in the Earth’s upper atmosphere. The more magnetically active the sun is, the fewer cosmic rays reach our upper atmosphere. When cosmic rays do reach the Earth, they react with atmospheric gases to free nuclei that help seed cloud formation, cooling the Earth’s surface.
No sunspots = more clouds = lower temperatures.
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Does the sun affect our global temperatures? Obviously. Is it the main cause behind global warming? No.
Almost nobody in the scientific community believes that the sun is the main cause of global warming. There's a reason why you're getting all of these arguments from web sites and blogs rather than peer-reviewed scientific papers.
How come you are happy to get all of your information from web pages which disagree with the mainstream scientific consensus, and at the same time refuse to *even look* at the papers I keep wanting to send you?
But to specifically address the solar issue, almost all the scientists out there agree that yes, variations in the Sun's output (obviously) have an effect on the Earth's temperature, but it is not as important as the effect of greenhouse gases.
Here's what Wikipedia says:
| Quote: | | A few papers suggest that the Sun's contribution may have been underestimated. Two researchers at Duke University, Bruce West and Nicola Scafetta, have estimated that the Sun may have contributed about 45–50 percent of the increase in the average global surface temperature over the period 1900–2000, and about 25–35 percent between 1980 and 2000.[40] A paper by Peter Stott and other researchers suggests that climate models overestimate the relative effect of greenhouse gases compared to solar forcing; they also suggest that the cooling effects of volcanic dust and sulfate aerosols have been underestimated.[41] They nevertheless conclude that even with an enhanced climate sensitivity to solar forcing, most of the warming since the mid-20th century is likely attributable to the increases in greenhouse gases. |
For you to just conclude that the Sun is the only factor which matters is completely unjustified.
By the way, our temperature keeps going up:
Link
And by the way, 2007 was the hottest year on record. 2002 was the second hottest on record, 2003 was the third hottest year on record, 2004 was the fifth hottest year on record, and 2005 was the fourth hottest year on record.
Here, knock yourself out with all of the data:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/gcag/GCAGtsalt?dat=BLEND&SYST=TS&TS=6
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5693
NASA Discovers 70% Of Global Climate Due To Pacific Ocean Oscillations - Not CO2
That article follows on the heals of a noted British climatologist (and 3rd Viscount of something or the other) also coming to a similar conclusion....
personally, I'm gonna mix up a huge plate of crow to serve up to the alarmists |
I never saw this before, so I guess I'll respond new. I don't suppose you care that Roy W. Spencer is a quack. Among other things, he is an intelligent design advocate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Spencer_(scientist)
And once again this is not a peer-reviewed result. It's nothing. It's just a web page. You have no idea at all if anything on it is worth anything at all.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Link
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”Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof“, Lorne Gunter, National Post, 20 October 2008 — Excerpt:
In early September, I began noticing a string of news stories about scientists rejecting the orthodoxy on global warming. Actually, it was more like a string of guest columns and long letters to the editor since it is hard for skeptical scientists to get published in the cabal of climate journals now controlled by the Great Sanhedrin of the environmental movement.
Still, the number of climate change skeptics is growing rapidly. Because a funny thing is happening to global temperatures — they’re going down, not up.
On the same day (Sept. 5) that areas of southern Brazil were recording one of their latest winter snowfalls ever and entering what turned out to be their coldest September in a century, Brazilian meteorologist Eugenio Hackbart explained that extreme cold or snowfall events in his country have always been tied to “a negative PDO” or Pacific Decadal Oscillation. Positive PDOs — El Ninos — produce above-average temperatures in South America while negative ones — La Ninas — produce below average ones.
… Also in September, American Craig Loehle, a scientist who conducts computer modelling on global climate change, confirmed his earlier findings that the so-called Medieval Warm Period (MWP) of about 1,000 years ago did in fact exist and was even warmer than 20th-century temperatures.
… While not stooping to such name-calling, weather-satellite scientists David Douglass of the University of Rochester and John Christy of the University of Alabama at Huntsville nonetheless dealt the True Believers a devastating blow last month.
For nearly 30 years, Professor Christy has been in charge of NASA’s eight weather satellites that take more than 300,000 temperature readings daily around the globe. In a paper co-written with Dr. Douglass, he concludes that while manmade emissions may be having a slight impact, “variations in global temperatures since 1978 … cannot be attributed to carbon dioxide.” |
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
”Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof“, Lorne Gunter, National Post, 20 October 2008 |
Pondering, seriously, you need to be more critical of your sources. You should NOT get your science from reporters or journalists. You should get it from scientists. Is this such a crazy request on my part?
And not only are you getting all of your global warming info from newspapers and web pages, but you're getting it from the National Post, which is literally the worst source of news in all of Canada. It's a right-wing politically-biased newspaper that has absolutely no integrity and doesn't even *try* to report accurate news. It's the Canadian version of Fox News.
Just read the article that you cited! Some examples:
| Quote: | | it is hard for skeptical scientists to get published in the cabal of climate journals now controlled by the Great Sanhedrin of the environmental movement. |
| Quote: | | Prior to the past decade of climate hysteria and Kyoto hype... |
| Quote: | | But in order to prove the climate scaremongers' claim... |
Does this even *remotely* sound like *journalism*, let alone *science*?!?
Do you think that Lorne Gunter is a scientist, that he knows anything about the science being discussed, or that he's anything other than a whacked-out crazy who has a newspaper column even though he shouldn't?
| Quote: | | Still, the number of climate change skeptics is growing rapidly. Because a funny thing is happening to global temperatures -- they're going down, not up. |
This simply isn't true. The numbers don't lie:
Instrumental_Temperature_Record Link
Check Link
The information is all out there and very easy to access. You have no excuse for reading and believing politically biased garbage from the National Post.
Incidentally here are the temperature projections by the *real* scientists:
Global Warming Predictions
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: |
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your slides have no date of publication.
Please cite sources after 2005.
Finally, I'm not citing the journalist, I'm pointing to the parts that are bolded.
ohh....and the Europeans aren't so "hot" on Kyoto anymore....
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | your slides have no date of publication.
Please cite sources after 2005.
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The first chart has temperatures up to 2006 or 2007.
Here, look at this:
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~karowe/UCS%20global%20warming%20fact%20sheet%20January%202006.pdf
In particular, pay attention to the part about the 20 hottest years on record. Seriously, look at how they are clustered.
Have the last couple of years been cooler? Yes. Why? It has to do with the sun's output. But global warming is certainly still going on, and the component due to CO2 is contributing more than ever. The absolute worst thing we could possibly do is conclude that global warming is entirely due to the sun and continue pumping out greenhouse gasses like crazy. Then, when the sun picks up again, we'll see a massive jump in global warming.
You seem to be comfortable throwing away decades worth of data because of a couple of non-record years. This is not ok. The trends are very important.
| Pondering wrote: |
Finally, I'm not citing the journalist, I'm pointing to the parts that are bolded.
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Bolded parts which HE wrote or selectively quoted! You're getting your science filtered through an extremely biased and uneducated journalist!
If you can find the name of the paper which he cited, then I will be happy to get it and read it. I very much doubt it says what he claims it says.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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doctrellor
Big Lion
Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 989
Location: Twin Cities
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: |
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P123
We JUST CAME OUT OF A GLACIAL PERIOD .. It's what's called an Interglacial period
Temps go Up!
But with the Sun cooling (even by a few tenths of a celcius will affect the temp here .. thus the colder winters
And the Arctic Sea Ice GREW BY 30% Last year
GLOBAL WARMING??? [Kyoto Protocols]
You mean another way for Al Gore to have us taxed!!!
Another typical Liberal Tax us into slavery Boondogle!
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Forgiveness aint easy, but it's a requirement! |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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If you can find the name of the paper which he cited, then I will be happy to get it and read it. I very much doubt it says what he claims it says. |
Link to an abstract at the bottom of the article....wouldn't linke for me, but your milage may vary.
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | Quote: |
If you can find the name of the paper which he cited, then I will be happy to get it and read it. I very much doubt it says what he claims it says. |
Link to an abstract at the bottom of the article....wouldn't linke for me, but your milage may vary. |
It's just as I suspected: The loser writing for the National Post TOTALLY misconstrued what the paper is saying. If you think that this paper is saying that humans are not causing global warming, then you're totally wrong.
All they've done is shown that one small aspect of the climate models being used might be wrong.
This is not a big deal; we know that the models aren't perfect. If this paper is right, then they'll fix the models and they'll be more accurate. That's a good thing, but it totally doesn't refute anthropogenic global warming by any stretch of the imagination.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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welll that's lucky then....
I think now would be good time to furhter limit our economic production, raise taxes, and otherwise prostrate ourselves to Mother Gaia.... 
(that's sarcasm, for those that have trouble infering tone in posts )
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Fighting global warming isn't an issue of raising taxes and killing the economy.
If we would have had some proper leadership during the past 20 years, the problem would have been solved.
If in say 1990 America would have gone whole hog into alternative power (which is what Denmark did) and developing electric cars, then America today would be getting 50% of their electricity from clean sources, and a huge number of people would be driving cheap, mass-produced electric cars which cost practically nothing to operate.
In addition, America would be the world's leader in alternative power, and you'd me making money hand over fist selling cheap, eco-friendly cars, wind turbines, and other technology to the rest of the world.
Oh yeah, and the primary (not to mention, secondary and tertiary) sources of income to the Middle East would be drying up, which means that Islam would lack the resources to help it spread. They would not be a military or social threat. It would be a national security dream.
But too bad we didn't have that leadership. Still, it's never too late.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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