Did you learn your thinking in a book?

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

RevJP, you called one of my statements

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Reminds me of something; maybe this will interest someone... I studied Islam a little several years ago, and I came across something that I couldn't understand at all. One of their classical examples of "self-abrogation" in the Quran is when it comes to alcohol. It is mentioned twice: The first time it says that Quran has some positive and some negative elements, but the bad outweigh the good; the second time it says that Muslims shouldn't use alcohol.

So I was like, "How is that self-abrogation? It says the same thing both times. It says it's bad, and then it says it's bad, don't use it. What's the difference?"

That's because I don't think in a legalistic frame of reference. For someone whose thinking is legalistic, the first one doesn't technically put a ban on alcohol, so it permits its use; but the second one prohibits it. See, where I'm from we just don't think and talk that way. But traveling and reading I have discovered that other people have a much more legalistic context of thought.

What is it that causes myself and RevJP to be thinking on such different planes? Is it a legalistic frame of reference, or some other bizarre thing? This is quite interesting. I'm very much into learning more about how people think and communicate, so I hope someone can shed some light on this situation. Any thoughts?

Oh no, I don't want to break off on a tangent though. Please let's also keep discussing the fact that God's word is a natural law.

YLTYLT · Ferret Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 120

I think I am beginning to see where Vibrate is coming from. He is saying that salvation cannot occur without BOTH the the gospel message and the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:11-14
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And if you look at the story in Ezekiel 37

1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

4Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

In this passage, the wind and breath are pictures of the Holy Spirit. The way the dry bones came from death to life was not by the Word alone. The Word only got them ready to receive the Holy Spirit.

Only When the Holy Spirit entered the bones did they have life.(salvation)

Vibrate, is this a correct analysis of what you were trying to communicate?

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

Well, it's true stuff. That's for sure. And it does refer to what I have been talking about.

It seems you get me, but I am also being very radical about it, by saying that the "gospel message" without the Holy Spirit is not just "not enough" but it is actually impossible. Like lemonade without the lemons (that's just sugar water).

This is the fundamental point I'm making. Then I am extending that point to apply it to the way churches and most people who call themselves Christians conceive of truth. Since we are "sold with sin as our master", we think carnally, and because of this a carnal "gospel" has come about, which is actually not the true Gospel at all.

This false teaching focuses on saying the "creed", and the so-called "right words". However, in fact there are no "right words" and there is no "creed" that can be articulated. I have been explaining exactly how dangerous the urge to unite around words instead of truth is, since it keeps us away from the real word of God.

Dry bones. That's a great one. I forgot about that story. I think it is just about the most hopeful and encouraging thing I've heard for a while.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

I want to emphasize that my intention here is not to criticize the existing churches, or Christians who think that way. My purpose is to point out a higher truth, the true church, which has now been revealed as the natural order! I am criticizing the way they think and the destructive Babylonian philosophy and traditions, but not the people. I hope the difference is clear.

When we understand the divinity of nature, we see that there is no need for other "churches" [organizations]. We see that there is already God's perfect, universal organization in our world, as well as in each and every life (human nature), so that there is no need to try to reinvent the wheel, or create a system to control chaos.

The natural order that I am talking about is so free, and beautiful! I am talking about it because it brings peace - life and fulfillment.

On the other hand, the Babylonian system, which every "church" teaches, claims that there is something wrong with nature. In fact this false claim is the very foundation of these churches' existence as organizations! The desire to serve and uplift God's kingdom has been twisted because of confusion, resulting in the formation of these churches, and the doctrine that establishes them. I support the churches fully as far as the fact that they seek God, and I am not criticizing them. But I am pointing out the way to fulfillment of our joy, by realizing the divinity of nature, so that we can separate ourselves from Babylon. This way, we will not share in her punishment!

All you'll hear me talking about on this forum, in this and other threads, is the divinity and perfection of the natural order, and the destructive results of the Babylonian system, which falsely imagines flaws or deficiencies in nature, and which therefore tries to impose false organizational conceptions, which keep our people in captivity in Babylon. I am here to declare the kingdom of God, and separation and freedom from the confusion and from the suffering that are the Babylon system.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

People who do not fully understand the nature of God's word always look for signs to point them in the right direction. It is like this in Jesus' time, too. Jesus came saying "I am the Way" and instead doubters continually asked for a sign. "'Show us Moses' they said, 'and we will believe you then.'"

Jesus knew that it wasn't Moses that they trusted in, because if they had believed Moses they would believe in the one who sent Moses. In fact these people trusted in illusion. So he told them, "Even if I showed you Moses you wouldn't believe."

This conflict between faith and evidence is the key point of Jesus' ministry, and of understanding the word of God. God's word is true because of itself, and not because everything it says comes to pass. The fact that everything God says comes to pass is evidence, but by itself cannot ever lead someone to know the truth of God's word. What a wonderful thing it is to know God's word, so that you can really know the truth about the things that take place according to His will.

The group that I have called "doctrine thinkers" are also looking for a sign. Sunday after Sunday, and all through the week the congregate to study the Bible so that they can piece together a complete doctrine, which they hope will bring them into God's presence. This endeavor is no different than the "tower to heaven" that this same group tried to build long ago. They will also failed, and in fact have already failed.

God has established the full doctrine of His word in the form of nature - the Universe and Human nature. There is no way to know the truth of nature except through God's word, which is its source and constitution. Still though, the doctrine thinkers try to find a sign in nature - they study their confusion trying to make sense of it, when they have already ignored the truth.

They seek proof and evidence, by way of a doctrine, when the true doctrine is there all around them. When I tell them about nature, they try to understand my words as a new doctrine, when my words are the power of nature, and God's word. Their minds have been confused by confusion.

Nature is the word of God, and this fact cannot be justified by any other source than nature itself. Do not look to your books, which only speak of nature, to provide evidence of nature. Who is Jesus by the natural man, the Way man is in truth? Know Him, and know the Way, but you will never find Him in words. The words describe Him, but only when you know how to read them the right way - only when you already know Him.

Do you know Him? If so, you will know that nature is the truth. Know Him and live. Know the truth, and be free, naturally.

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me ... not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

YLTYLT · Ferret Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 120

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

In every church you go to, you will hear some spiritual teaching, and some carnal teaching.

What is needed is a full and perfect tradition, which is what Jesus taught. But church politics and fear get in the way, simply because God's people are ignorant of that full and perfect tradition.

The Natural Tradition is full, and complete. This is what is needed in the churches to get to that stage where oppression cannot enter in. Nature does not go against the true faith that they already have, but it confirms that faith, and increases their knowledge, so that they can stand firm.

The false teachings of the doctrine, legalist approach has put a wedge between those who want the truth and the Way of Nature, which explains all truth to them. It is as Jesus said: The Pharisees and lawyers (who are today church elders and pastors) have blocked the entrance, and do not even go in themselves. They do this by using doctrinism as a wedge to block the entrance, to keep God's people from recognizing the true teachings of nature.

But guess what? Now nature is revealed, and is being taught openly with sure knowledge.