And darkness was upon the face of the deep

The Walrus · Not So Newbie Joined: 06 Dec 2007 Posts: 8

Gen 1:2 And darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

This verse has always captivated me and I've spent many hours meditating on it. I've always been curious what the direct translation is though, and if it gives some more insight into what the world was like when being formed. Also what God was like when man had not yet existed. There is only a few verses in the bible talking about existence before man and in this one God is referred to as "God's spirt." Just an intersting verse and wanted to know if anybody had any further insight.

atoz · Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject:

Yehushuan · Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:30 am Post subject:

Hi Walrus,

Allow me to offer the Young’s Literal Translation of this passage for you.

In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth-- the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
and God saith, `Let light be;' and light is.
(Gen 1:1-3 YLT)

One difficulty with translating ancient Hebrew is, oddly enough, modern English. According to the PBS special on the English language hosted by Robert McNeil (of the older McNeil, Lehrer Report) English has more words than modern French, Spanish, and German COMBINED.

All these English words are not merely synonymous, but carry nuances of meaning that turn the English speaker one way or another - a myriad of nuances that does not exist in Hebrew vocabulary - so which English word to choose? Which false nuance do we introduce? (That's the trouble with the serpent seed doctrine when ‘deluded’ is removed and ‘seduced’ is substituted.)

From this perspective, the educated person becomes a difficulty because he is aware of these numerous nuances today - an awareness that didn't exist back then. Hence with the Dead Testament, translation IS interpretation.

Yehu

PS: www.e-sword.net has free software with a free Young’s literal version available.
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JohnStevenson · Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:33 am Post subject:

hat lady · Tadpole Joined: 30 Jun 2008 Posts: 24

Here is the original words and word order in English

Genesis 1:2 And the earth she became chaos and vacancy and darkness over faces of abyss and spirit of Elohim vibrating over faces of waters.

try the scriptureanalyzer4all on the web.

God Bless
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Hi my name is hat lady and I like to do Bible Study Expository Sola Scriputra stlye. I am open to exploration of the scriputres.

JohnStevenson

GospelCompilation · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:26 am Post subject:

Hi Walrus, I have to agree with Yehushuan: Hebrew language was (and still is) more consistent, more logical, and much more poetic than English (which has become the most complicated language to ever exist in the history of mankind).

Therefore, I suggest: when you consider this (or any) verse in Scripture, think of it in the absolute simplest terms possible... and there you'll find the true meaning.

Because of our language and our philosophical bent, we tend to make things in the Bible so much more complicated than they were intended by the ancient writers. So keep it simple. Then you'll find the truth.

And it won't sound like a science-fiction novel.

joman · Grizzly Bear Joined: 07 Jun 2004 Posts: 746

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 757

joman,

You said:

joman · Grizzly Bear Joined: 07 Jun 2004 Posts: 746

FFT · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject:

Wow. Hardly a single bit of that was in any way Biblical beyond using Biblical characters.

I'm impressed.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

joman · Grizzly Bear Joined: 07 Jun 2004 Posts: 746

Abdullah · Tadpole Joined: 05 Oct 2008 Posts: 29 Location: Amerika

Wow! I am shocked at all the misinformation and mistranslation here! Shocking. Not to mention the constant referencing to Jesus and the New Testament. One must realise that the NT comes thousands of years later....

The passage in question states this:

"והארץ היתה תהו ובהו וחשׁך על־פני תהום ורוח אלהים מרחפת על־פני המים׃"

Basically:

"The earth was without form and void, and darkness was on the face(s) of the deep. And the spirit/breath/wind of God(Elohim) was hovering over the face(s) of the water(s). "

Some points I can add. "Spirit" is this passage (ie:רוח), which occurs 378 times in the MT, also means "breath" or "wind". Which in it's self may have certain theological connotations one may infer from. The LXX's "πνεῦμα", which occurs 382 times, offers us no additional insight to the question...

Secondly, and a bit more interesting, is the word "מרחפת", which the "spirit/breath/wind of God is doing", means "to hover"(it's root may also mean: " to grow soft", "relax", "be soft", "brood"), only occurs three times in the TaNaCH. (this passage, with Deu 32:11 and Jer 23:9). In this case, the LXX is a bit more helpful, giving us "ἐπεφέρετο". Used a total of 17 times (only 3 of which, are contained in the Pentateuch), this can mean "to bring", "to put", "to lay upon". In this case, it's usage means "to be borne (on)" (cf: Lust, Eynikel, Hauspie)The Greek seems to intimate that God was not so much hovering, but rather "floating" perhaps.

As for some of the other comments. The original language in the Bible, is indeed, much simpler that the English. Much of the NT reads with the vocabulary of a child. However, there is something a tad different in the Hebrew. Hebrew, as a Semitic language, has it's entire language based off of three letter root words. These,unpronounceable roots, often have several, if not many, meanings in English. Words which we think of as separate concepts, are all tied in to one concept in Hebrew, which cannot be expressed in English.

Hope this helps....

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 757

joman,

Interesting posts. They might just have merit.

God Bless

JB