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The Walrus
Not So Newbie
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 8
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 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: And darkness was upon the face of the deep |
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Gen 1:2 And darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
This verse has always captivated me and I've spent many hours meditating on it. I've always been curious what the direct translation is though, and if it gives some more insight into what the world was like when being formed. Also what God was like when man had not yet existed. There is only a few verses in the bible talking about existence before man and in this one God is referred to as "God's spirt." Just an intersting verse and wanted to know if anybody had any further insight. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| The Walrus wrote: | Gen 1:2 And darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
This verse has always captivated me and I've spent many hours meditating on it. I've always been curious what the direct translation is though, and if it gives some more insight into what the world was like when being formed. Also what God was like when man had not yet existed. There is only a few verses in the bible talking about existence before man and in this one God is referred to as "God's spirt." Just an intersting verse and wanted to know if anybody had any further insight. |
Hi TW,
I think I do.
Check out:
John 1:1 for who or what was with God before anything existed.
The see what word God days he is:
1 John 4:8, 16.
For more about what God was like before He made anything or made man,
check out:
Matthew 7:12 and 22:36-40,
and then ask yourself:
When God tells us to love Him,
is God already loving Himself?
When God tells us to love Him,
is he already first loving us?
Then see 1 John 4:19.
Therefore, before anything existed,
was God
loving Himself as everything in Him,
and
loving everything in Him as Himself
before anything existed outside of Him,
ie,
before he created anything or anyone outside of Himself?
Then it shd be clear what the spirit of God or God's Spirit or the spirit of God's mind is.
See Phil 2:5. John 15:9. John 13:35. Mark 12:29-34.
1 Corin 16:14. Ephes 4:15-16.
etc.
You are doing good thinking!smile
with Love in God and God in Love,
atoz |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2466
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Hi Walrus,
Allow me to offer the Young’s Literal Translation of this passage for you.
In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth-- the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
and God saith, `Let light be;' and light is.
(Gen 1:1-3 YLT)
One difficulty with translating ancient Hebrew is, oddly enough, modern English. According to the PBS special on the English language hosted by Robert McNeil (of the older McNeil, Lehrer Report) English has more words than modern French, Spanish, and German COMBINED.
All these English words are not merely synonymous, but carry nuances of meaning that turn the English speaker one way or another - a myriad of nuances that does not exist in Hebrew vocabulary - so which English word to choose? Which false nuance do we introduce? (That's the trouble with the serpent seed doctrine when ‘deluded’ is removed and ‘seduced’ is substituted.)
From this perspective, the educated person becomes a difficulty because he is aware of these numerous nuances today - an awareness that didn't exist back then. Hence with the Dead Testament, translation IS interpretation.
Yehu
PS: www.e-sword.net has free software with a free Young’s literal version available. |
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JohnStevenson
Little Guppy
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 37
Location: Hollywood, FL USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: |
From this perspective, the educated person becomes a difficulty because he is aware of these numerous nuances today - an awareness that didn't exist back then. Hence with the Dead Testament, translation IS interpretation. |
Well-stated. And it is exactly for this reason that Young's "literal translation" is to be taken as just another interpretation. The normal translation found in most Bible has just as much, if not more, to recommend itself. |
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hat lady
Tadpole
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: Darkness on the face of the deep. |
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Here is the original words and word order in English
Genesis 1:2 And the earth she became chaos and vacancy and darkness over faces of abyss and spirit of Elohim vibrating over faces of waters.
try the scriptureanalyzer4all on the web.
God Bless |
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JohnStevenson
Little Guppy
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 37
Location: Hollywood, FL USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: Re: Darkness on the face of the deep. |
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| hat lady wrote: | Here is the original words and word order in English
Genesis 1:2 And the earth she became chaos and vacancy and darkness over faces of abyss and spirit of Elohim vibrating over faces of waters. |
I had to chuckle over your rendering of the term "vibrating." If we were to be consistent, then we would also see the following translations where the same Hebrew word is used:
Deuteronomy 32:11. "Like an eagle that stirs up its nest, That VIBRATES over its young, He spread His wings and caught them, He carried them on His pinions."
Jeremiah 23:9. "As for the prophets: My heart is broken within me, All my bones VIBRATE; I have become like a drunken man, Even like a man overcome with wine, Because of the LORD And because of His holy words." |
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GospelCompilation
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 284
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Hi Walrus, I have to agree with Yehushuan: Hebrew language was (and still is) more consistent, more logical, and much more poetic than English (which has become the most complicated language to ever exist in the history of mankind).
Therefore, I suggest: when you consider this (or any) verse in Scripture, think of it in the absolute simplest terms possible... and there you'll find the true meaning.
Because of our language and our philosophical bent, we tend to make things in the Bible so much more complicated than they were intended by the ancient writers. So keep it simple. Then you'll find the truth.
And it won't sound like a science-fiction novel. |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: Re: And darkness was upon the face of the deep |
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| The Walrus wrote: | | Gen 1:2 And darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. |
It actually reads "...and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
| Quote: | | What God was like when man had not yet existed. |
Jesus Christ; the same yesterday, today and forever.
| Quote: | | There is only a few verses in the bible talking about existence before man and in this one God is referred to as "God's spirit." |
The word spirit is capitalized for a reason.
The verse in question describes an earth that was created when the 'heaven' was created. Note: it's not "heavens" in verse one...it's heaven.
Note also that 'heaven' is not capitalized as it will be in later verses which is improtant.
The earth at the time of this verse is a lump of clay awaiting the hand of the Potter who is the Lord.
The earth is in this condition because it's function is to be the clay with which God lays the foundation physically as well as spiritually of his eternal kingdom.
The correct reading of the verse states that the Spirit moved upon the waters. This shows direct and decisive action as opposed to the false wording you gave which implies an aimless movement of God's Spirit as though he was mulling things over as to what to do.
the earth was without form since the Potter hadn't moved yet.
The earth was void because it had no life nor light nor apparent purpose.
The word face is used so as to reveal that God saw himself in the waters. And of course Jesus of Nazareth is the man of clay God formed to refute all satanic opposition to truth.
The word 'deep' is used to inform us that while heaven was above there was a place there where there was waters (like a sea) and in the deep of it was this thing called earth.
Satan and his legions disregarded the earth as an important thing.
However, God chose the base thing to confound the wise.
Joman. |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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joman,
You said:
| Quote: | | The earth was void because it had no life nor light nor apparent purpose |
Are you saying that God did something which had no purpose?
JB |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | joman, You said: | Quote: | | The earth was void because it had no life nor light nor apparent purpose |
Are you saying that God did something which had no purpose? JB |
No. I said that there was no..."apparent purpose".
The true purpose of the earth being created as a lump of clay was to confound the wise who thought that the lump of clay (earth) was of no value.
God chose the earth as his means of response against all the works of his enemy Lucifer.
God the Potter in response to rebellion in heaven which occurred before the creation of Adam used the earth to form the clay man ADAM.
The Devil was confounded by this and thought to refute God's arguments by easily defeating the clay man Adam.
The Devil thought that the argument that God... loves his creatures was a lie and wanted to show that God's so called "love" was a weak excuse and not the power of God that it actually is.
The Devil defeated Adam via his wife Eve.
However, Adam wasn't deceived like Eve was.
Adam well knew the consequesnces but loved his wife (his own flesh) more than he did God and joined her rather than face eternity without her.
He should've trusted God and died for her, but he didn't.
Satan thought he had won.
But, behold, then God informed satan that a manchild was coming via Eve's body who would crush his head (intellectuality/reasonings/scholarships... etc.)
The second ADAM who is Jesus of Nazareth was the intended express image of God not Adam.
Jesus by force of will due to his own choosing to obey his Father no matter what ascended to the highest throne and received the crown of all creation.
Because, the only begotten Son of God is proven perfect by this means then so also has God the Father proven his worthiness to be God.
Joman. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5901
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. Hardly a single bit of that was in any way Biblical beyond using Biblical characters.
I'm impressed. |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | Wow. Hardly a single bit of that was in any way Biblical beyond using Biblical characters.
I'm impressed. |
Not so! All I wrote about in that post is in the Bible.
I use a quick narrative approach because I wish to incite interest in the subject.
But, I'm not inclined to believe you are at all interested in verification of what is truly biblical.
Joman. |
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