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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1987
Location: Atlanta
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 Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: Old tablet raises debate on Jewish-Christian links |
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| Quote: | Jerusalem —- A 3-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.
If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, because it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was part of a recognized Jewish tradition.
The tablet, probably found near the Dead Sea in Jordan according to some scholars who have studied it, is a rare example of a stone with ink writings from that era —- in essence, a Dead Sea Scroll on stone. It is written, not engraved, across two neat columns, similar to columns in a Torah. But the stone is broken and some of the text is faded, meaning that much of what it says is open to debate.
Still, its authenticity has so far faced no challenge, so its role in helping to understand the roots of Christianity in the devastating political crisis faced by the Jews of the time seems likely to grow.
Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmudic culture at the University of California at Berkeley, said the stone was part of a growing body of evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood through a close reading of the Jewish history of his day.
"Some Christians will find it shocking —- a challenge to the uniqueness of their theology —- while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional part of Judaism," Boyarin said.
Given the highly charged atmosphere surrounding all Jesus-era artifacts and writings, both in the general public and in the fractured and fiercely competitive scholarly community, as well as the concern over forgery and charlatanism, it will probably be some time before the tablet's contribution is fully assessed. It has been some 60 years since the Dead Sea Scrolls were uncovered, and they continue to generate enormous controversy regarding their authors and meaning.
The scrolls, documents found in the Qumran caves of the West Bank, contain some of the only known surviving copies of biblical writings from before the first century A.D. In addition to quoting from key books of the Bible, the scrolls describe a variety of practices and beliefs of a Jewish sect at the time of Jesus.
How representative the descriptions are and what they tell us about the era are still strongly debated. For example, a question that arises is whether the authors of the scrolls were members of a monastic sect or in fact mainstream. A conference marking 60 years since the discovery of the scrolls will begin today at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, where the stone, and the debate over whether it speaks of a resurrected messiah, as one iconoclastic scholar believes, also will be discussed.
The stone itself is not a new discovery. It was found about a decade ago and bought from a Jordanian antiquities dealer by an Israeli-Swiss collector who kept it in his Zurich home. When an Israeli scholar examined it closely a few years ago and wrote a paper on it last year, interest began to rise. There are now a spate of scholarly articles on the stone, with several due to be published in coming months.
"I couldn't make much out of it when I got it," said David Jeselsohn, the owner, who is himself an expert in antiquities. "I didn't realize how significant it was until I showed it to Ada Yardeni, who specializes in Hebrew writing, a few years ago. She was overwhelmed. 'You have got a Dead Sea Scroll on stone,' she told me."
Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai. The expression "Thus said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel" appears many times, as does the name Jerusalem.
Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late first century B.C.
A chemical examination by Yuval Goren, a professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University who specializes in the verification of ancient artifacts, has been submitted to a peer-review journal. He declined to give details of his analysis until publication, but he said that he knew of no reason to doubt the stone's authenticity.
Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, is part of a larger scholarly movement that focuses on the political atmosphere in Jesus' day as an important explanation of that era's messianic spirit. In the latest issue of The Journal of Religion, he notes, after the death of Herod, Jewish rebels sought to throw off the yoke of the monarchy, which was supported by Rome.
In Knohl's interpretation, Augustus, the Roman emperor who sought more control over Judea, is a kind of Antichrist while the messiah is embodied by a Jewish political leader of a rebellion. That could be a man named Simon who was slain by a commander in the Herodian army, according to the first-century historian Josephus. The writers of the stone were probably Simon's followers, Knohl contends.
The slaying of Simon, or any case of the suffering messiah, is seen as a necessary step toward national salvation, he says, pointing to lines 19 through 21 of the tablet —- "In three days you will know that evil will be defeated by justice" —- and other lines that speak of blood and slaughter as pathways to justice.
To make his case about the importance of the stone, Knohl focuses especially on line 80, which begins clearly with the words "L'shloshet yamin," meaning "in three days." Knohl, who is an expert on the language of the Bible and Talmud, says the next word is "hayeh," or "live" in the imperative. It has an unusual spelling, but it is one in keeping with the era.
Two more hard-to-read words come later, and Knohl said he believed that he had deciphered them as well, so that the line reads, "In three days you shall live, I, Gabriel, command you."
To whom is the archangel speaking? The next line says "Sar hasarin," or prince of princes. Because the Book of Daniel, a primary source for the Gabriel text, speaks of Gabriel and of "a prince of princes," Knohl contends that "Gabriel's Revelation" is about the death of a leader of the Jews who will be resurrected in three days. |
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ragman13
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Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Do you know of a formal name for the tablet?
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If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1987
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | | Do you know of a formal name for the tablet? |
No. The article in the Atlanta newspaper is the first I've heard about it.
I'm a longtime subscriber to BAR and I don't remember them saying anything about it. I may have just overlooked it though...or fallen victim to middle age memory lapse. (yikes!)
Maybe someone else on this Forum will be able to shed some additional light on the subject for us. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1987
Location: Atlanta
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1987
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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ragman.
I've experienced some difficulty today with the second link I provided yesterday. If you are having trouble with it too, you can access the paper directly from the Shalom Hartman Institute Link |
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ragman13
German Shepherd
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah I couldn't access it but I found it another way.
Looks like the author has been up to disproving the Messiah for a while.
_________________
If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it. —Thomas Carlyle
Shh. Don't tell anyone that I am a Fundamentalist! |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6284
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Not so much that as disproving that Jesus was it (which isn't particularly difficult) but rather that it was Simon.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1987
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | | Looks like the author has been up to disproving the Messiah for a while. |
Yes, but I think this stone tablet, if authentic, helps the Christian cause. Judaism (at least some branches) does not accept the concept of a messiah that dies and is resurrected.
| Quote: | | "In light of disturbing developments which have recently arisen in the Jewish community, the Rabbinical Council of America in convention assembled declares that there is not and has never been a place in Judaism for the belief that Mashiach ben David [Messiah son of David] will begin his Messianic Mission only to experience death, burial and resurrection before completing it." |
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There may now exist a Jewish archaeological artifact, pre-dating the time of Jesus, that contains this concept.
(edit hid link so is doesn't stretch page.) Nobby |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1987
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This text could be the missing link between Judaism and Christianity in so far as it roots the Christian belief in the resurrection of the Messiah in Jewish tradition," he told the AFP news agency. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7495006.stm |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5286
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Mattathias, I've noticed that you've posted a lot of links lately, a lot of them are to long. when I see them I've been hiding them under words so they don't stretch the pages. You need to learn how to do this. In this, the Noah's Lounge forum up at the top of the threads. I explain step by step how to do this.
Nobby
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1987
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | Mattathias, I've noticed that you've posted a lot of links lately, a lot of them are to long. when I see them I've been hiding them under words so they don't stretch the pages. You need to learn how to do this. In this, the Noah's Lounge forum up at the top of the threads. I explain step by step how to do this.
Nobby |
I tried following the directions but I haven't been successful. I'm obviously missing something but I'll keep trying until I get it right. 
P.S. I finally figured out what I was doing wrong.  |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
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Posts: 5286
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | P.S. I finally figured out what I was doing wrong. |
Hey Matt I knew you could do it!
Matt you can place the links under one word or any number of words & they won't stretch a page. 
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1987
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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ragman.
BAR did in fact have an article on the stone tablet. (I missed it because I had cataract surgery on both eyes at the same time this particular issue arrived. I just realized this evening that I had set the magazine aside and never did get back to it!) BAR will be doing a follow-up article in their late summer issue.
| Quote: | | The text first came to wide attention when our print publication, Biblical Archaeology Review published Yardeni’s “A New Dead Sea Scroll in Stone?” in its January/February 2008 issue...A more complete article tracking Knohl’s research—by the man himself—will be published in the September/October 2008 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review...Watch for Knohl’s full article, “The Messiah Son of Joseph: ‘Gabriel’s Revelation and the Birth of a New Messianic Model,” in the September/October 2008 BAR, out in mid-August. It will include the full text of the stone Dead Sea Scroll, plus Professor Knohl’s reconstructions. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1987
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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The September/October 2008 issue of BAR contains an article on "Gabriel's Revelation" in an article titled The Messiah Son of Joseph. If interested, you may read it online.
The Messiah Son of Joseph
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rufus
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Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 113
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | The September/October 2008 issue of BAR contains an article on "Gabriel's Revelation" in an article titled The Messiah Son of Joseph. If interested, you may read it online.
The Messiah Son of Joseph |
I have a question about Israel Knohl's English translation of "Gabriel's Revelation". Is the word Lord the Hebrew "YHWH" (the tetragramaton) or is it "adonai"? I'm guessing it's YHWH.
| Gabriel's Revelation wrote: |
Column 1
1. [ ] ........
2. [ ] Lord
3. [ ] . [ ] .
4. [ f]or th[us sa]id the Lo[rd] I have betr[oth]ed you to me, garden
5. [ ]... ..[
6. and I will talk .... .... [
7. [ ] children of Israel .... [?]...[ ] ...[ ] ....
8. son of David [?] ......[
9. [ ] the word of the Lor[d]
10. [ ] .... ..... ..... ..... you have asked ... [?]
11. [?] Lord you have asked me, so said the God of Hosts
12. [ ] .. from my house Israel and I will talk about the greatness of Jerusalem
13. [Thus] said the Lord, God of Israel, now all the nations
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I underlined Lord where I'm assuming it's the tetragrammaton, and only quoted the first 13 lines, so not to make a long post. There's 87 lines in Column's 1 and 2.
Can anyone read the Hebrew and tell us if it reads "YHWH" where Knohl translates it "Lord"?
Thanks |
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